Dare I attempt a serious discussion of live tells?

[Pokerstudent]

I think people are negating tells because they think that people use them like every movie we have ever seen. He sits down, you see a tell and then use it to milk him for all his money.

I've never seen them like that. I mean, if you know what he has, you know what he has. But poker is a game of incomplete information. If, when you are stuck, you can look to a tell to provide ancillary information, it becomes helpful.

And yes, tells are different based on who you are and where you grow up. North Americans nod their head up and down to signify 'yes'. South Asians (Indians) tilt their head from side to side (similar to a bobble-head -no disrespect intended) to signify 'yes'. That's why you have to watch them while you're NOT in the hand to collect the information needed. Once you see what they do normally, you can compare it to what is abnormal. It's NEVER 100%.....but heck, I'll take 70% anyday!

 

[Maid Marian]

Pupil size also is affected by medications a person may be taking too...so don't rely totally on that. Also the nervousness of a person can be from the same or just from feeling stressed in a new situation. It doesn't necessarily tell you everything about that player's abilities or cards in hand!

 

[Misofer]

I agree with everything you said about live tells, especially that they can be faked and misunderstood, because it has happen to me ):

 

[thepokerkid123]

No more additions? "yeah, I look for this...", "I've noticed that regs start looking for tells at Xnl they can be mislead by...", "I think to apply tells well you need to estimate it's reliability and apply that to their range like such..." (the last one is pretty much viewing tells the same as we do combinatorics)



And to respond to the latest posts:

I agree on some things but still: Blinking, heart rate and unconscious actions come out of stress. I dare you to know if he's stressed because he's bluffing or if he's stressed because he has a monster hand and wants you to bet or call him

That's just it. Most of what I wrote isn't looking for stress... well, it is, but it's more precisely positive or negative. If he's licking his lips (and he hasn't been sitting there doing that a lot while not in a hand) then I'm taking it as "he's got a hand he wants to value bet" and not "he's stressed".

I think people are negating tells because they think that people use them like every movie we have ever seen. He sits down, you see a tell and then use it to milk him for all his money.

Exactly.
Anyone who doesn't think fish pay attention to tells should look through the threads here on CC and see the newer players all saying "I had this guy on -insert specific hand-". People don't start playing poker to start narrowing down ranges and figuring out game theory, they start playing poker in the style it was written in super system and it's advertised on t.v poker, they want to stare their opponents down and make a hero call or bluff. They want to reinact what they saw in Rounders.
I think they care more about tells than they do about pot odds (and most fish do know pot odds, even if they have dumb ideas about applying them), that's why I don't like using tells that you're likely to read in a top 10 tells list.

Pupil size also is affected by medications a person may be taking too...so don't rely totally on that. Also the nervousness of a person can be from the same or just from feeling stressed in a new situation. It doesn't necessarily tell you everything about that player's abilities or cards in hand!

That is a new one to me. Glad you mentioned it.
Mind you, wouldn't the medications simply make their pupils less responsive? Since we're looking for changes, we're more likely to just not see anything than be mislead? Dunno, just throwing it out there.



Just some random other comments, and FWIW, I don't know why I keep rambling on and sharing information but I guess I'm still hoping for more in return.
Some common problems with tells:
Foreign people. This isn't racist (for one, I'm foreign to 90% of you guys). As was already mentioned, they can have different mannerisms but in addition to that, they do all look the same at first. What I mean is that for a long time I was terrified of tables full of people of a certain skin colour, wonderful people as most of them were, if you haven't spent a whole lot of time around people of a different ethnicity it's really hard to see subtleties. The sollution is just to spend heaps of time with them and eventually different muscles will start standing out in their faces.
Also, old guys. Some old women too, but men are worse.
You know when their face looks like it's turned to leather and just doesn't move, it's just frozen in a permanent scowl? Also, possibly just because I'm a young bloke but you get some of these old timers who get offended by the millions of wannabe-internet-pros who play too aggressively for their liking, and they just look angry all the time. These old guys reduce me to just playing poker (pretty much treating it as online poker), and it's lucky that they're all so horrible at the game. If anyone has a sollution to this, I'd like to hear it.

Then you've got drunks who you don't really need tells against, and I guess if you played poker seriously against friends/family it'd be hard too (easier to be objective when there's an emotional distance).

 

[dwolfg]

Yep, it does. He calls them "the most honest part of the body".

I've said it a hundred times before and I'll probably say it a hundred more, BTW, but anyone who plays live NLHE and is relying on Mike Caro's Book of Tells instead of Navarro is crazy. Read 'em and Reap is about a bajillion times better written, it's easier to apply, it's got a much better grounding in actual psychology and it doesn't waste your time with tells that only apply to draw poker home games that nobody plays any more anyway.

C'mon get serious bajillion is not a real number. Since I own both Caro's and Navarro's books, I can give a real estimation. Navarro's is about 4.2 million times better than Caro's.

 

[thepokerkid123]

Bajillion sounds bigger than 4.2 million. I'd go with bajillion, but I don't think you're too far off.

 

[OzExorcist]

C'mon get serious bajillion is not a real number. Since I own both Caro's and Navarro's books, I can give a real estimation. Navarro's is about 4.2 million times better than Caro's.

 

[Weregoat]

Yep, it does. He calls them "the most honest part of the body".

I've said it a hundred times before and I'll probably say it a hundred more, BTW, but anyone who plays live NLHE and is relying on Mike Caro's Book of Tells instead of Navarro is crazy. Read 'em and Reap is about a bajillion times better written, it's easier to apply, it's got a much better grounding in actual psychology and it doesn't waste your time with tells that only apply to draw poker home games that nobody plays any more anyway.

I don't remember exactly what I said, I'd merely said I'd read the book, not that I valued any information from it.

The book is dated and has a ton of references to limit poker. And is dated. And has a ton of references to limit poker.

A lot of good info on thread.

 

[ph_il]

I think body tells (eyes, mouth, breathing, etc) can be easy to fake and are sometimes unreliable. When I look for tells on people, I look to something that they're probably not consciously paying attention to.

For example what a player does after they look at their cards. At a home game, there is a player who does one of three things after she looks at her cards. She never waits, she looks at them as soon as she gets them. If she is going to fold, she puts her cards next to her stack. If she is going to call, she puts one chip on her cards. If she is going to raise, she puts her hole stack on her cards and takes from the top.

Sometimes they way people bet when they're bluffing or have a strong hand will change and can be a good tell. I picked up a self tell when I was playing and realized that if I'm bluffing, i'll take a stack, count out a bet in stacks of four, restack, count out again, restack, then slide the chips in. If I have a made hand, I count out a bet in stacks of four, restack once, then bet. I'm right handed, so now I just do all my betting with my left hand and try to keep everything as similar as possible.

 

[thepokerkid123]

I think body tells (eyes, mouth, breathing, etc) can be easy to fake and are sometimes unreliable. When I look for tells on people, I look to something that they're probably not consciously paying attention to.

For example what a player does after they look at their cards. At a home game, there is a player who does one of three things after she looks at her cards. She never waits, she looks at them as soon as she gets them. If she is going to fold, she puts her cards next to her stack. If she is going to call, she puts one chip on her cards. If she is going to raise, she puts her hole stack on her cards and takes from the top.

Sometimes they way people bet when they're bluffing or have a strong hand will change and can be a good tell. I picked up a self tell when I was playing and realized that if I'm bluffing, i'll take a stack, count out a bet in stacks of four, restack, count out again, restack, then slide the chips in. If I have a made hand, I count out a bet in stacks of four, restack once, then bet. I'm right handed, so now I just do all my betting with my left hand and try to keep everything as similar as possible.

Yeah, good point. There are some blatantly obvious habbits that we can let slip.

A few of mine:

When I first started using a card protector I hated putting it on top of my cards and then taking it off just to fold around 80% of the time and consequently spent about a dozen sessions putting a chip on my cards only if I wasn't expecting to fold. I randomised it a little by leaving the chip until the last second some of the time and putting it on and folding once in a while, but it was still pretty bad.

I was also a bit rusty after spending most of the early part of this year playing online and for a few sessions was verbalising bets with air and just counting them out when I had a hand.

For a long time, despite being aware of it I'd fall into the habbit of folding my arms when playing tight (because you're folding and doing nothing so much it's easy to fall into this when you're a nit) and having my hands sitting on the felt when I was playing loose (because they're always doing something). This one actually applies pretty universally, imo, at least with people who aren't paying much attention and is a good guesstimate of your opponents when you first sit down.


FWIW, the best defence against giving these off is to randomise them. Be aware of them and give off false signals as often as you give off useful information, it makes reading you much harder.
One of the more obvious signs that someone is doing this (note that it's pretty much only decent regs who'll give of false info) is deep breathing. Typically rapid breathing means a hand and held breath means a bluff, this one is courtesy of Mike Caro's book of tells and like most of them is so often manipulated that it's not reliable (maybe against the guy who's never played before, but he's the only one I'd use this against on the first time I see him do it), but that someone takes the effort to fake this will tell you that they're probably giving off other fake tells too. And no, you don't naturally accidentally do this tell the other way around, that goes against instinct. Once I see someone is giving off false info I'm pretty much done with trying to pick up tells on them, I'll only look for stuff that I think is more advanced than they're likely to be aware of but that cuts down (a lot) on the frequency of actually seeing something.

So yeah, giving off false tells is a pretty good defence if you're playing against regs who aren't brain dead (and let's face it, even amongst regs they're the minority).

 

[Pokerstudent]

When you ask about live tells, are we only referring to the body?

If not.....

Chips: Sometimes (please note the italics), we can look at how orderly/disorderly the chips are to see if a player is tight or loose. I would suggest that the best use of this tell is too see that a player with scattered chips is probably not tight. Orderly chip stacks can be tight...but I also think it can be loose. Disorderly might be more loose. But I don't think a tight player scatters the chips around. (not a strong tell, but to be used in conjuction with others)

Chip Placement: I have seen this work several times, but only with certain types of people. When some bettors has a strong hand, they sometimes place the chips closer to themselves. I have heard this explained as a subconscious act given they know that they will soon be retrieving the chips. Don't know if it is for the most part reliable, but I have seen it several times.

Chip Denominations: I'm sure many are familiar with this one. I would only apply it to beginners. If the bettor's bet is 8K, they might use 8 - 1k chips normally, but use a 5k, and 3 - 1k chips if they are very strong. Some players do not like to give up there higher value chips. At the same time, some players will use 8 - 1k chips to make it appear a much larger bet. So, you have to know your player.

Chip Glance: Upon recognizing that they have a good hand, the player will glance at the opponents chips to see what they have a chance at winning. I think people are on to this one and do not see it much anymore except for amateurs.

This is not a physical action tell, but more like potential information to use.

Outward Appearance/Race/Sex/Age: (Pokerstudent opts to open Pandora's Box...)

Are typical women passive? Are typical over 50 players tight? Are Asians too aggressive? If the player is wearing a tie, suit and glasses, are they afraid to loose their money? Some people say that these are stereotypes and have no place at the table. Thoughts?

 

[thepokerkid123]

When you ask about live tells, are we only referring to the body?

To anything other than betting patterns that gives you information.
Chip placement is fine, and just one I'd like to add is once in a while you'll notice someone hold onto a chip for an instant longer than normal (it'll catch your attention), this is a pretty strong tell of weakness, I think. Basing that only on experiance.

Are typical women passive? Are typical over 50 players tight? Are Asians too aggressive? If the player is wearing a tie, suit and glasses, are they afraid to loose their money? Some people say that these are stereotypes and have no place at the table. Thoughts?

I think typical women are honest poker players, they don't often try to deceive. Bets are value, checks can be pot control or giving up. Curiously, I find those who most closely resemble this description believe other people to be honest too and I have on numerous occasions said "it's okay, I have it" on a bluff and gotten the desired result.
With that being said, there are a couple of decent women players I play with who're dangerous as hell the first time you play against them because they can bluff.
There are of course women who play every different way, but against an unknown, folding to her bets and bluffing into her checks is usually a pretty good default option.

Over 50's can be anything. If you're talking about the crowd of old people who're in a casino at 11am, yeah those games are very nitty, but I do find plenty of wealthy old people can be major whales who call a lot. I find that the younger generations play more aggressively but there are some 50ish people who've kept up with the game.

Tie + suit + glasses, I'm going the opposite way here and saying they're looser. Can be good or can be a station.


I think stereotypes are bad when they limit someone's freedom or result in their being treated badly, but making snap judgements on whether we can include more value or air in our ranges and how much credibility we give their bets is fine, imo.

 

[thepokerkid123]

Eh, missed the Asians part.

Plenty like to gamble but overall I can't pin it down to one style of play. That category is too wide.

 

[Grossberger]

I think you have to figure out things on your own you will see things people do while betting or looking at cards and figure out if they are weak or strong. The main thing to remember is to always watch your opponent even when maybe contumplating a call.

Lets say you raise preflop with JJ and get 1 caller flop comes Q 7 3 and opponent shoves for most of your stack? How can you get info from this?
easy in MOST cases by asking questions both about the hand and not about the hand. See what questions they answer and which they dont.
Also even if your not gonna call the raise play with your chips like your counting them out for a call but watch your opponent as you do this he might showsome discomfort thinking your calling then you may figure him weak.

I personally have picked up many things on peopl by just watching them and how they do things when you bet or act as if your gonna bet, or what they do when they bet.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Nice thread! Cool seeing the time you've put into writing it, along with the responses, etc.

 

[Chemist]

Fake Tells?
One time I was short stacked and had left my jacket on after the break.
I looked at my hand pushed all in and whilst my opponent was deciding whether to call I took my jacket off and slipped it over the back of the chair.
He thought this was a 'tell' that I was confident with my hand and he folded.

I was pleased with my little act and happy to collect the pot uncontested.


OP mentioned Verbal lines:
I'd like to add to that comment that the words are often unimportant, but more emphasis should be placed on the way it is said and the voice characteristics. Under the stress of bluffing or the excitement of the nuts the vocal chords react differently and produce wavers or higher pitches.
(In the context of this forum; excitement of the nuts refers to having the best poker hand).
It is said that Phil Helmut can determine the strength of a players hand if he can just hear their voice.

 

[FORZA MIKE]

i just watch the table when im not playing and i go with my gut alot of the timesometimes im wrong but im not a pro and am still learning lol

 

[Weregoat]

It is said that Phil Helmut can determine the strength of a players hand if he can just hear their voice.

Ridiculous.

On an unrelated note, I find the hand over the mouth = weakness has yet to be imitated, let alone provide bad information.

E.G. I have garbage hand, I fold.

Pot continues between player on my right and player on his right.

First player to act checks, player immediately bets the pot, and covers his mouth with his hand. Other player notices and contemplates raising (presumably with a hand like 2nd Pr), and calls. Turn hits a raggy garbage card, First player checks, 2nd player removes hand from mouth and goes all in. First player folds, 2nd player reveals turned low set.

Act on your gut. It's right more times than it's not.

Especially once you get a lot of hands under your belt. One of my biggest weaknesses is doubting my gut sometimes.

 

[Weregoat]

Lets say you raise preflop with JJ and get 1 caller flop comes Q 7 3 and opponent shoves for most of your stack? How can you get info from this?
easy in MOST cases by asking questions both about the hand and not about the hand. See what questions they answer and which they dont.

Since it's so hard to ignore your opponent, look away, and wait for them to make their action.

But yes, a talkative opponent can give up information.

 

[Chemist]

i just watch the table when im not playing and i go with my gut alot of the timesometimes im wrong but im not a pro and am still learning lol

Very interesting you should say that, because I once had the opportunity to have a chat with wsop winner Joe Hachem and that is precisely what he told me; 'go with the gut'.

Perhaps with the right amount of muesli and probiotics you could be a pro mike.