Official Poker Razor Study thread

Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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First range

Fish 10% {TT-66, AQ, AJs-A2s, KQs, QJs}

Scenario 1 A high rainbow As 4d 7h

Here the villain has
Set 4%
Top pair 48%
Underpair 24%
BD FD 34.7%

C-bets have to work 33-47% of the time depending on size. So this is close and probably not worth c-betting. He often has an ace or a pair. If he calls (which he will do a lot) we just wont know what to do unless he peels with air a large % of the time.

Secnario 2 K high rainbow Ks 4d 7h

Set 3.4%
Top pair 3.4%
Underpair 20.5%
Third pair 10.2%
A high 54.5%
BD flush draw 40.9%

Here c-betting looks good. He almost never has the king. His range is weighted towards pairs or A-high. He may peel and pick up a FD on the turn. This is useful to know as the presence of a flush card may justify him sticking around on the turn.

Scenario 3 K high wet = {Ks Jh 9d}
Set 3.4%
TP 3.4%
Second pair 6.9%
Third pair 10.3%
Low pair 20.7%

Straight 0%
4 out Straight Draw 36.8&
BD FD 40.2%

Basically this flop doesn’t hit him at all. He does pick up a draw 36.8% of the time and a flush card coming on the turn may account for him sticking around or getting aggressive if that added to his straight draw. C-bet

Scenario 4 A high wet = {As Jh 9d}

Set 4.1%
2 pair 5.4%
Top pair 48.6%
Second pair 4.1%
Third pair 8.1%
4 out straight 5.4%
BD FD 33.8%

The interesting thing here is how low his straight draw possibilities are. You are basically facing a made hand (Ax) or nothing, with a few 2 pairs thrown in.

Oddly enough I wouldn’t c-bet this.
If we have the best hand then its not worth raising. We aren’t giving up much by letting him draw anyway.

Scenario 5 K high wet = {Ks Jh 9d}

Set=3.4%
TP =3.4%
Second pair =6.9%
Third pair =10.3%
Low pair = 27.7%
Ace high =55.2%

4 out straight =36.8%
BD flush = 40.2

C-bet for sure. He often holds A-high so if he peels flops with A high, then this is a good flop to charge him on. He has a Gunshot about 1/3 of the time and will be picking up a FD on the turn 40% of the time.

Scenario 6 A high two tone unconnected = {As Jh 7h}

Set = 4.1%
Trips= 5.4%
TP = 48.6%
SP=4.1%
3P=24.3%
LP = 8.1%
4 Out straight draw = 5.4%
Weak 2 card FD 1.4%
Nut FD 12.2%

This is another odd one. I would have assumed that this flop would hit him in terms of FD’s however He has a FD only 12% of the time. The bigger danger is him having A-High. This means he is likely to be charging hands if he has it. C-bet and he will often be raising, so its not worth C-betting.

Scenario 7 K high two tone unconnected = {Ks Jh 7h}

Set = 3.4%
TP = 3.4%
SP= 6.9%
3P=24.1%
LP=6.9%
A High = 55.2%

4 SD = 23%
Weak FD = 1.1%
Nut FD = 10.3%
BD FD =13.8%

C-bet. His range is weighted towards Aces so Kings are only a small portion of it. He could easily be peeling with A high. FD’s again are lower than expected yet higher than when the high card is an Ace.

Scenario 8 Low dry = {9s 7h 3c}

Set = 7.1%
OP= 7.1%
TP = 3.5%
UP =7.1%
SP= 3.5%
3P=10.6%
A high= 51.8%
BD FD = 42.4%
Overcards =37.6%

A large portion of his range here are Over cards. He has a higher than usual chance of having a set. A high is still a big part of his holdings. I really wouldn’t C-bet this simply because he is very likely to peel and if he does lots of cards look scary. We wont know where we are so I don’t think it should be c-bet.

Scenario 9 Low connected = {9s 7h 6c}

Set 11%
OP 7.3%
TP 3.7%
UP 7.3%
SP 3.7%
3P 3.7%
AHigh 53.7%
4 out SD 17.1
8 out 12.2%
BD FD 43.9%
Overcards 39%

I wouldn’t bet this.

He has almost a 20% chance of SD combined with an almost 40% chance of picking up a FD and 39% of his current holdings are over cards. I would be more inclined to check/fold or check and bet the turn as long as no cards come completing his draws or over cards come which could shut me down.

Scenario 10 Low Connected and suited = {9s 7h 6h}

Flush 12%
Set 11%
Op 7.3%
TP 3.7%
UP 7.3%
£pair 3.7%
Ahigh 43.9%
4 out SD 14.6%
8 out SD 11%
Weak 1 card FD 11%
Overcards 39%

I don’t like c-betting this unless the villain is very weak. He has so many draws or hands that do well on this board that if he calls we are just in a terrible spot and OOP.
If he calls then it really doesn’t matter what we have we are done with the hand. So I see no point in c-betting.

Scenario 11 Monotone high = {Ks Js 9s}

Flush 10%
TP 3.4%
SP 6.9%
tP 10.3%
LP 20.7%
AHIGH 44.8%
4 out straight draw 35%
Weak 1 card FD 17.2%
Nut 1 card flush draw 3.4%

This isn’t a bad flopp to c-bet.

10.3% of the time he has a flush. 1/3 of the time he has a GS straight draw, but the rest of the time he dosnt have a hand he will go broke on.

Scenario 12 Monotone low = {8s 5s 3s}

Flush 11.4%
Set=3.4%
OP 13.6%
TP 3.4%
UP 13.6%
SP 3.4%
3P 3.4%
AHigh 40.9%

4 out SD 6.8%
Weak 1 card FD 17%
Overcards 40.9%

I would c-bet this.

He has a made flush 10% of the time, but it’s a scary board and the vast majority of his holdings do not look good on this board.

Scenario 13 Monotone middle highly connected = {8s 6s 5s}

Flush 11.8%
Set 7.1%
OP 14.1%
TP 3.5%
UP 7.1%
2P = 3.5%
3P 3.5%
Ahigh 42.4%

4 out ST 14.1%
8 out SD 10.6%
Weak 1 card Fd 14.1%

Overcards 42%

Im not so keen on c-betting this pot because of the increase in straight draws he has. Other than that its pretty much the same as the last example. But now he has more reasons to peel. In the previous example I was c-betting with the hope of winning there and then, and perhaps occasionally fire again on the turn, however I’m not so keen with the additional straight draws he has.

Scenario 14 X with high paired {Ks Ts Th}

4 of a kind 1.2%
Trips 2.3%
TP 3.5%
3P 3.5%
A high 60.5%
4 out SD 23.3%
8 out SD 4.7%
Weak FD 1.2%
Nut 2 card FD 11.6%
BD FD 14%

The most striking thing about this is his relative lack of FD’s. He has more GS’s than FD’s. C-bet this for sure. He is likely to be chasing SD’s or FD’s however if non come in and you are faced with a large river raise, there really isn’t much he can have other than a monster. Knowing this I still feel it’s a pot to get involved with as the monsters are incredibly unlikely.

Scenario 15 X with middle paired {9s 7c 7d}

4 of a kind 1.2%
FH 3.6%
Trips 3.4%
OP 7.2%
TP 3.6%
UP 7.2%
3P 7.2%
AHigh 57.8%

BD FD 43.4%
Overcards 38.6%

C-bet. There are some monsters out there but most of the time he has A high. Even if he peels a lot, you would probably be good here to fire a second barrel.

Scenario 16 X with low paired {5s 3c 3h}

Trips 2.2%
OP 33%
TP 3.3%
A high 52.7
4 0ut Sd 8.8%
BD flush 39.6
OC 52.7%

C-bet. He almost never has anything in his range he wants to play here. He may well peel he has tons of Overcards and A High hands. This really don’t hit him at all.


----------------------------------------------
That took ages!!!




Feel free to suggest different courses of action. Its just my interpretation of the data rather than a definative way of playing each scenario.
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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What types of hands do we think villains are going to continue with after the flop? Obviously we expect them to continue with top pair and better.

I'd guess that a lot of 2nd pairs will call a cbet. What I'm not sure about is how villains will react with hands like Ace high. I see them make calls with these hands, but how often are they doing it?

Getting a better idea of these things will help us get a better estimate of what kind of fold equity we actually have on various flops.
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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Stu, in the scenarios you laid out #3 and #5 have the same flop displayed, but different outcomes. I'm guessing that was supposed to be a different flop?
 
ChuckTs

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What types of hands do we think villains are going to continue with after the flop? Obviously we expect them to continue with top pair and better.

I'd guess that a lot of 2nd pairs will call a cbet. What I'm not sure about is how villains will react with hands like Ace high. I see them make calls with these hands, but how often are they doing it?

Getting a better idea of these things will help us get a better estimate of what kind of fold equity we actually have on various flops.

Well the point of these analyses is to break down what range will have hit the flop in what way. Basically it's meant to give you a good idea of how various common opponent types hit various common flop types, so that the next time you find yourself in a similar situation you can break down their range easier/quicker and make your decision more +EV.

A good example, straight from one of my analyses linked to in the OP was a Axx board. I was surprised to find that, even though loose passive players have a way wider range, it still hits that flop WAY harder than it does a taggy player since the loose passives play so many offsuit aces. Just a general pokerazor breakdown of two different rough player types on the same flop texture, and from now on I don't cbet Axx as often or for as big of a fraction of the pot against a fish.

But basically going into the next level of questions (will he continue with x hand, is he raising or flatting it, etc) is kinda useless without a concrete example. You have to decide in the hand if he's likely to float overs/ace high/bottom/middle pair/backdoor draws, and what he's raising vs flatting, etc etc etc. Each opponent is different, and all Pokerazor does for you is break down how their range connects with the flop, not how the player reacts.
 
Mase31683

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Figured I'd keep the format like Stu started.

Scenarios vs Tourist (32/4) when he Cold Calls

Scenario 1 Ace high rainbow
:as4: :4d4: :7h4:

Top Pair+ 17.4%
Underpair 12.4%
King high 19.9%
Nothing 31.5%



Scenario 2 King high rainbow
:ks4: :4d4: :7h4:

Top Pair+ 17.4%
Underpair 12.4%
Ace high 19.9%
Nothing 31.5%



Scenario 3 King high wet
:ks4: :jh4: :9d4:

Top Pair+ 24.9%
2nd Pair 15.8%
Ace high 14.0%
Nothing 17.5%

Gutshot 43.4%
OESD 1.8%



Scenario 4 Ace high wet
:as4: :jh4: :9d4:

Top Pair+ 17.9%
2nd Pair 15.8%
King high 14%
Nothing 24.6%

Gutshot 15.8%
OESD 8.8%



Scenario 6 Ace high 2-tone unconnected
:as4: :jh4: :7h4:

Top Pair+ 17%
2nd Pair 17%
King High 14%
Nothing 22.8%

Gutshot 26.3%
F-Draw 5.3%



Scenario 7 King high two tone unconnected
:ks4: :jh4: :7h4:

Top Pair+ 17%
2nd Pair 17%
Ace High 14%
Nothing 22.8%

Gutshot 17.5%
OESD 8.8%
F-draw 5.3%



Scenario 8 Low dry
:9s4: :7h4: :3c4:

Top Pair+ 15.3%
Ace High 19.4%
King High 19.4%
Nothing 27.5%

Gutshot 9.7%
OESD 4.9%
Overcards 58.3%



Scenario 9 Low connected
:9s4: :7h4: :6c4:

Top Pair+ 15.3%
Ace High 19.4%
King High 19.4%
Nothing 27.5%

Gutshot 36.3%
OESD 9.4%
Overcards 58.8%



Scenario 10 Low Connected and suited
:9s4: :7h4: :6h4:

Top Pair+ 18.3%
Ace High 19.5%
King High 19.5%
Nothing 24.4%

Gutshot SD 36.2%
OESD 9.3%
F-draw 5.3%
Overcards 58.5%



Scenario 11
Monotone high
:ks4: :js4: :9s4:

Top Pair+ 30.6%
2nd Pair 15.7%
Ace High 13.1%
Nothing 13.1%

Gutshot 41.9%
F-Draw 22.3%
Nut draw 3.9%



Scenario 12
Monotone low
:8s4: :5s4: :3s4:

Top Pair+ 24.9%
Ace High 18.1%
King High 18.1%
Nothing 24.2%

F-draw 27.8%



Scenario 13
Monotone middle highly connected
:8s4: :6s4: :5s4:

Top Pair+ 25.8%
Ace High 18.2%
King High 18.2%
Nothing 21.9%

Gutshot 10.9%
OESD 7.3%
F-draw 27.9%
Nut draw 3.6%



Scenario 14
X with high paired
:ks4: :10s4: :10h4:

Top Pair+ 27.5%
Ace High 14.9%
Nothing 29.8%

Gutshot 16.7%
OESD 7.4%
F-draw 6.9%



Scenario 15
X with middle paired
:9s4: :7c4: :7d4:

Top Pair+ 15.4%
Ace High 19.5%
King High 19.5%
Nothing 30.9%

Gutshot 8.1%
OESD 3.3%
Overcards 58.5%



Scenario 16
X with low paired
:5s4: :3c4: :3h4:

Top Pair+ 23.2%
Ace High 19.2%
King High 19.2%
Nothing 33.6%

Overcards 70.4%


--------------------------------

You were right Stu, that took longer than I'd imagined. I don't want to extrapolate this data any further just yet. However I will say that Nothing and Ace/King high make up the vast majority of ranges here. As long as our opponent is folding these hands with some regularity, c-betting should prove quite profitable in the majority of these flops.
 
bgomez89

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First range


Scenario 9 Low connected = {9s 7h 6c}

Set 11%
OP 7.3%
TP 3.7%
UP 7.3%
SP 3.7%
3P 3.7%
AHigh 53.7%
4 out SD 17.1
8 out 12.2%
BD FD 43.9%
Overcards 39%

I wouldn’t bet this.

He has almost a 20% chance of SD combined with an almost 40% chance of picking up a FD and 39% of his current holdings are over cards. I would be more inclined to check/fold or check and bet the turn as long as no cards come completing his draws or over cards come which could shut me down.
Could you explain why you wouldn't c-bet this more? Obviously this guy is a nit so i would think that most nits don't chase gut shots a lot (or do they?). So maybe, considering what i mentioned, if we c-bet this flop we can just take it down right then and there. If he calls then we can check/fold the turn if it's high cards

I went a little bit further and put a suited high card on the turn and a suited low card just to see how often he picks up the FD on the turn and it was only about 11-12% of the time so really all we need to be worried about would be a higher Gutshot straight draw percentage and an Ace.

I don't know i might be way off base here
 
Stu_Ungar

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Could you explain why you wouldn't c-bet this more? Obviously this guy is a nit so i would think that most nits don't chase gut shots a lot (or do they?). So maybe, considering what i mentioned, if we c-bet this flop we can just take it down right then and there. If he calls then we can check/fold the turn if it's high cards

I went a little bit further and put a suited high card on the turn and a suited low card just to see how often he picks up the FD on the turn and it was only about 11-12% of the time so really all we need to be worried about would be a higher Gutshot straight draw percentage and an Ace.

I don't know i might be way off base here

Because although there isnt much he can have, there are a ton of overcards and draws he could call with.

Even if he is tight, we arent representing al that much.

What could we have?

a 9?
maybe we have some straight cards.. but they dont form much of our range.

This flop dosnt hit us. If ever there was a time for him to peel this is it.

Then what do we do on the turn?

I just don't see it as a good flop to c-bet
 
bgomez89

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Because although there isnt much he can have, there are a ton of overcards and draws he could call with.

Even if he is tight, we arent representing al that much.

What could we have?

a 9?
maybe we have some straight cards.. but they dont form much of our range.

This flop dosnt hit us. If ever there was a time for him to peel this is it.

Then what do we do on the turn?

I just don't see it as a good flop to c-bet
are we assuming we raised preflop?
 
bgomez89

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can't believe i asked that. Pretend i didnt
 
W

WossaPotOddz

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I'm a bit confuzzled

View attachment 22320

So we can see here that our Villian pairs his Ace or better (i.e. trips) 22.1 % of the time. <--- aren't we calculating the cumulative frequency of all paired ace+ hands. Razor says that's 28.5%, not 22.1?

This isn't all that surprising as he has a lot of Aces in his range.

View attachment 22324

He is holding a BD flush draw 36.1% of the time, but basically he either has a pair ace, trips or nothing. So we are good to c-bet this flop (100-36.1) = 63.9 % of the time.

Also why does the BD flush draw % affect our c-bet%?
 
Stu_Ungar

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I'm a bit confuzzled



Also why does the BD flush draw % affect our c-bet%?
It's just something to be aware of should he peel


It probably is 28.5% I looked at absolute values and noted down them down.. probably missed one. Makes it slightly less attractive, but should still show an auto profit provided he dosnt peel too much
 
Mase31683

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You know, the more I look into various opponents and flop textures, the harder time I have finding flops that aren't good to cbet, lol.

That was always a problem for me though, never saw a flop I couldn't cbet. My cbet percentage was 92%, now it's around 80%. I'm curious as to what other's cbet success rates are like.
 
RogueRivered

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I was just looking at those stats. Overall, I'm at 70% c-bet, with 50% success. That's across 3 different micro-stakes.
 
PokerMagpie

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Am I too late to the party ? Can a beginner to Pokerstove (or poker, in general) gain any benefit to this thread, or is there another resource I should use ? I find it fascinating to use any kind of analysis to gain better understanding in to the odds of poker...
 
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