Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
LOL. Position is the single most important factor in almost every hand. I don't think this is an exception. Also don't forget I said he could easily cbet AQ here, in which case he is folding, no questions asked. And I was not trying to say that I thought ANY random player would fold an overpair. I was saying that THAT player in particular could potentially fold an overpair. Fwiw he tank-called KK.
"Dead to rights" implies I'm in a lot of trouble equity-wise, when that's just not the case here, ever. I'm guaranteed to see 2 more cards when I shove. If he has a bigger flush draw I'm actually ahead equity-wise with top pair (Though if he had a FD with 2 overs we're basically flipping). At worst I'm probably roughly 1/3 equity (he basically never has sets here).
How much I am "chasing" for doesn't matter. Variance is variance no matter how much is being risked. And you can hardly call it "chasing" - chasing is basically check-calling until you do or don't hit the nuts on the river. I'm not saying this is necessarily fantastic, but frankly I think the only reeeaallyy questionable part is the preflop call, which I already acknowledged was quite loose.
Yeah - the more I thought I about it, the more I hated the whole situation. In a way the board is nowhere near as good as I would have liked. Much better would have been Kxx or Qxx, since she is never folding top pair, ever. I think a lot of the cash game players here will say checking turn might be missing value, but I'm not sure. Would like to hear from more people about this hand.
Just so gross to see a blank flop, get a call from a loose passive, and suddenly have the sneaking suspicion that we're drawing dead on the turn. Not saying that makes the bets good, just that it was pretty hard to go into check-fold mode with aces there.
What I meant by saying position is irrelevant you misunderstood.
I meant even though you have position, you shouldn't be playing garbage cards like this.
domeburglar
Visionary
Silver Level
yea i understand the idea of being in position with the pot bloated and all that but you gotta think with all the other callers someone could easily be flatting with Axs,kxs and have ur flush draw dominated or better speculative hands like j10, qj, kj your just putting yourself in a spot to be dominated just pick a better spot..
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
For that j7 hand matt, I'm not really a huge fan of shoving the flop tbh.
Do you really think he's capable of cbetting AQo 5 way? If he's that much of a spew station, then what do you think he would do on a blank turn? Is he spewy enough to fire a double barrel with air? Bc if he is, let him do it. He only has 4 clean outs w/ two overs + lots of turns that he would double barrel are going to improve our hand (3,6,7,8, any heart) IN my experience at 1/2, if an A or Q of hearts smashes turn, he's prob gettting it in for stacks drawing dead
I just think shoving flop is allowing him to continue with his range that beats us (QQ+, AKhh, AJ, 44/55) and fold out what were ahead of/have sick equity against( 77-1010, two overs, some flush draws)
Do you really think he's capable of cbetting AQo 5 way? If he's that much of a spew station, then what do you think he would do on a blank turn? Is he spewy enough to fire a double barrel with air? Bc if he is, let him do it. He only has 4 clean outs w/ two overs + lots of turns that he would double barrel are going to improve our hand (3,6,7,8, any heart) IN my experience at 1/2, if an A or Q of hearts smashes turn, he's prob gettting it in for stacks drawing dead
I just think shoving flop is allowing him to continue with his range that beats us (QQ+, AKhh, AJ, 44/55) and fold out what were ahead of/have sick equity against( 77-1010, two overs, some flush draws)
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
A little more.LOL. Position is the single most important factor in almost every hand. I don't think this is an exception. Also don't forget I said he could easily cbet AQ here, in which case he is folding, no questions asked. And I was not trying to say that I thought ANY random player would fold an overpair. I was saying that THAT player in particular could potentially fold an overpair. Fwiw he tank-called KK.
"Dead to rights" implies I'm in a lot of trouble equity-wise, when that's just not the case here, ever. I'm guaranteed to see 2 more cards when I shove. If he has a bigger flush draw I'm actually ahead equity-wise with top pair (Though if he had a FD with 2 overs we're basically flipping). At worst I'm probably roughly 1/3 equity (he basically never has sets here).
How much I am "chasing" for doesn't matter. Variance is variance no matter how much is being risked. And you can hardly call it "chasing" - chasing is basically check-calling until you do or don't hit the nuts on the river. I'm not saying this is necessarily fantastic, but frankly I think the only reeeaallyy questionable part is the preflop call, which I already acknowledged was quite loose.
Yeah - the more I thought I about it, the more I hated the whole situation. In a way the board is nowhere near as good as I would have liked. Much better would have been Kxx or Qxx, since she is never folding top pair, ever. I think a lot of the cash game players here will say checking turn might be missing value, but I'm not sure. Would like to hear from more people about this hand.
Just so gross to see a blank flop, get a call from a loose passive, and suddenly have the sneaking suspicion that we're drawing dead on the turn. Not saying that makes the bets good, just that it was pretty hard to go into check-fold mode with aces there.
So he did call you with K-K. What was the outcome of the hand? Did you win?
So a tight player bets $40 into around a $48 pot, and he has $100 behind. You give him no credit whatsoever to actually having a hand? So the call he is faced with after you shove is $100 to call, and there is $188 in the pot to go after. Almost 2 to 1 on a call. And after all, he did and still does have the best hand here. You are just trying to hit the lotto and suck him out. Equity schmequity.
And he may have just put you on a FD, and thought he was ahead (which he was).
Now think of how much money that J-7 suited of course (in position, mind you) cost you. It is a trouble hand.
I was just giving my two cents. You asked for input. Then, it seems you get defensive when you get it.
Still just my $0.02
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Lol if I was getting defensive, then there's some defensiveness-ception going on... Sorry but I have a bit of a list about your comments:
- Whether or not I won the hand is completely irrelevant
- I was very clear in my first post that I figured he DID have a good hand
- He's not ahead if I have a set, which is a decent part of the range I was trying to rep -> you can't assume he knows my exact two cards and therefore his own equity in the hand
And sorry but LOL @ "trying to hit the lotto." Do you even know what my odds of winning against KK (including the K of hearts) are here? It's 46%. If "equity shmequity" is really how you feel about poker then that's fine, but I won't be the only one rolling my eyes at that statement.
I'm totally fine with you saying that I should fold pre, or that the shove is LESS profitable than flatting, but claiming that the play is costing me money just isn't true mathematically. With $60 in the pot (I specifically said it was 5-way), if I shove and he never folds, I still make money on the hand.
I'm not being defensive - I'm restating things I already said, which you're frankly misrepresenting, and correcting some things you've glossed over, like the fact that I draw a profit on this hand due to the dead money in the pot.
And although the title of the thread wasn't meant as a question, yes, meth is clearly the way to go
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Good point about cbetting 5-way that I didn't really think of, thanks deuces. I think I liked shoving at the time (not as sure now) because if I flat the flop, he has ~$100 behind, and there's $140 in the pot. If a complete brick hits the board, I can't call a shove (I don't think). So maybe a bit too variance-heavy with the shove, but I'm just not sure.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Alright, hitting the lotto was referring to the decision you made preflop to call.
And whether you won or not is absolutely relevant. Isn't the goal of playing poker to win money? That is the only way to keep score. I am sure it was relevant if you got felted in this spot.
Let's look at it from K-K's perspective:
If I am him, it looks like you are trying to get me to fold. Equity, mathematical figures, and so on I don't really care. If it looks like you are trying to make me fold, I will disappoint you. Now, what can you have?
A flush draw. Top pair with a flush draw. Perhaps a set, but I think unlikely. And do I hold the king of hearts? If I do, snap call. Even if I don't, I am going to call here, because it looks like you are drawing, and I am going to play the math (that's in my favor) and get it in.
From his perspective, he is getting his money in good.
From your perspective, it seems as if you suspected an overpair. You chose to be the aggressor, and you knew you could well be drawing against a stronger hand. This to me is more like gambling (calculated risk, whatever). Maybe on the flop you were 46% to win. But you are still choosing to gamble for $160, with a J-7 suited. That is how things can result by getting into pots with hands that are easily dominated.
Good flop for you, but you are still more than likely drawing and behind here.
But the whole point here is why you would ever choose to get into a spot like this preflop with a raise and 2 callers (one of them tight). So if you lost ultimately (which I am almost certain you did), you chose to get into this spot.
It is loose to make the call preflop. If you wouldn't have done this, you wouldn't have the potential to lose money with it. J-7 suited is a trouble hand. You should be picking better spots to get into pots. It is simply a bad play to get involved against a known tight player with rags.
If you want to roll your eyes, have at it. Keep playing J-7 suited in postion, and let me know how you do with it (in the long run). I personally wait for much better cards to invest my money. It is absolutely relevant to me if I am going home with empty pockets, or money.
And whether you won or not is absolutely relevant. Isn't the goal of playing poker to win money? That is the only way to keep score. I am sure it was relevant if you got felted in this spot.
Let's look at it from K-K's perspective:
If I am him, it looks like you are trying to get me to fold. Equity, mathematical figures, and so on I don't really care. If it looks like you are trying to make me fold, I will disappoint you. Now, what can you have?
A flush draw. Top pair with a flush draw. Perhaps a set, but I think unlikely. And do I hold the king of hearts? If I do, snap call. Even if I don't, I am going to call here, because it looks like you are drawing, and I am going to play the math (that's in my favor) and get it in.
From his perspective, he is getting his money in good.
From your perspective, it seems as if you suspected an overpair. You chose to be the aggressor, and you knew you could well be drawing against a stronger hand. This to me is more like gambling (calculated risk, whatever). Maybe on the flop you were 46% to win. But you are still choosing to gamble for $160, with a J-7 suited. That is how things can result by getting into pots with hands that are easily dominated.
Good flop for you, but you are still more than likely drawing and behind here.
But the whole point here is why you would ever choose to get into a spot like this preflop with a raise and 2 callers (one of them tight). So if you lost ultimately (which I am almost certain you did), you chose to get into this spot.
It is loose to make the call preflop. If you wouldn't have done this, you wouldn't have the potential to lose money with it. J-7 suited is a trouble hand. You should be picking better spots to get into pots. It is simply a bad play to get involved against a known tight player with rags.
If you want to roll your eyes, have at it. Keep playing J-7 suited in postion, and let me know how you do with it (in the long run). I personally wait for much better cards to invest my money. It is absolutely relevant to me if I am going home with empty pockets, or money.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
I'm sorry but you and I have very different concepts on "the long run" and what it means. You claim to care about the long run, but think it's a mistake to get my money in with 46% equity in a hand that has dead money in the pot (which, by the way, is the reason neither the villain nor I made a mistake getting all the money in). The AMOUNT of money in is irrelevant, only the expectation of the play. And I'd like to point out that never once did I say that I lost the hand. If you're so results-oriented that you HAVE to know, I'll tell you: the turn was the 6 of spades, giving me an open-ender, and the river brought the flush in. But again, once the money is in, I don't really care what happens afterward, since it all evens out in the long run.
So in response to the preflop stuff, which I find much more relevant/the place where the legitimate mistake was made, I agree. The reason it's hard to lay them down is that when I'm getting those odds, and I have felted people with them in the past, it's easy to trap myself. I acknowledge that. I ended up tightening up later in the session, since I was getting into some trickier spots that just weren't going to be profitable.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
So you would fold if you are him with K-K?
I wouldn't. No way.
Good for you if you won. Then good play. Glad it worked out for you.
But you did get in preflop a serious dog. And then you hit the lotto. It takes alot of skill to do that.
I wouldn't. No way.
Good for you if you won. Then good play. Glad it worked out for you.
But you did get in preflop a serious dog. And then you hit the lotto. It takes alot of skill to do that.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Bean, I'm not sure if you thought I was trying to get insulting or not, but let me be explicit: Never once was I trying to be in your face about this.
I will say it one more time: neither myself nor the villain made a mistake on the flop by getting it in. Dead money creates these types of situation. Yes, I got it in pre as a dog, getting 5:1, though that still didn't justify the play. In other words YES YOU ARE CORRECT. <--- Was that clearer than the last 2 times I said it?
In response to the bolded type: Do not be deliberately rude and unproductive. I didn't create this thread to be insulted.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Fair enough. Perhaps I am in a bad mood, and I am the one who is defensive. I apologize, honestly.
It feels sometimes that people (others also) always challenge what I say. I don't think about poker like you guys do. I am almost exclusively a live player, and I have done well over the last few years. And a recent bad run of cards probably is the reason I was quick to criticize the J-7 suited. I have been getting outdrawn alot lately. Nothing personal, I am a bit too sensitive sometimes about what people say.
No hard feelings.
?
youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
When we are hand analysing results are irrelevant.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Oh ok. Still learning the way around here. I will catch on eventually I hope.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Thank you very much for the apology - I seriously appreciate it. Definitely no hard feelings. I understand being in a bad mood and trying to post, though I think part of it was just differences in opinions clashing.
I agree that your being primarily a live player will give you a very different perspective on some things from those who primarily play online. I'm glad to have a mix of both ITT, as I feel the doubled perspectives will be useful (though sometimes conflict-worthy ).
Don't take the challenges to your views too hard - I do the same, but I (mostly) realize that it's good food for thought if nothing else.
Please please continue to contribute to the thread, but keep in mind that we may not see eye-to-eye all the time, and even less frequently will I be playing perfect poker
Now after that enormous derail, I feel I can post another hand!! This one is just for lawlz, though:
Drunk, aggressive, and hopefully rich (because of how much he was losing) player raised from MP to $10 (his standard was always $10 or $15, unclear if there was a reason to the madness). I had JJ on the BTN and there was one caller in between. I elected to 3bet to $30 because I figured the drunk guy would either shove (not uncommon) or call, and the guy in between would fold. Drunkard called, other guy folded, and we went to the flop:
Flop: JT3r
He insta-shoved the flop (he typically shoved to fold people off of hands - yes he was VERY bad), and I snap-called while trying not to drool all over my cards and chips.
He gives me this kind of surprised look (I had been folding to most of his aggression when I held mediocre hands) and turned over T5o. I took it down without further incidence.
I've run into disappointingly few of this type of player.
I agree that your being primarily a live player will give you a very different perspective on some things from those who primarily play online. I'm glad to have a mix of both ITT, as I feel the doubled perspectives will be useful (though sometimes conflict-worthy
).Don't take the challenges to your views too hard - I do the same, but I (mostly) realize that it's good food for thought if nothing else.
Please please continue to contribute to the thread, but keep in mind that we may not see eye-to-eye all the time, and even less frequently will I be playing perfect poker
Now after that enormous derail, I feel I can post another hand!! This one is just for lawlz, though:
Drunk, aggressive, and hopefully rich (because of how much he was losing) player raised from MP to $10 (his standard was always $10 or $15, unclear if there was a reason to the madness). I had JJ on the BTN and there was one caller in between. I elected to 3bet to $30 because I figured the drunk guy would either shove (not uncommon) or call, and the guy in between would fold. Drunkard called, other guy folded, and we went to the flop:
Flop: JT3r
He insta-shoved the flop (he typically shoved to fold people off of hands - yes he was VERY bad), and I snap-called while trying not to drool all over my cards and chips.
He gives me this kind of surprised look (I had been folding to most of his aggression when I held mediocre hands) and turned over T5o. I took it down without further incidence.
I've run into disappointingly few of this type of player.
youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Thank you very much for the apology - I seriously appreciate it. Definitely no hard feelings. I understand being in a bad mood and trying to post, though I think part of it was just differences in opinions clashing.
I agree that your being primarily a live player will give you a very different perspective on some things from those who primarily play online. I'm glad to have a mix of both ITT, as I feel the doubled perspectives will be useful (though sometimes conflict-worthy
Don't take the challenges to your views too hard - I do the same, but I (mostly) realize that it's good food for thought if nothing else.
Please please continue to contribute to the thread, but keep in mind that we may not see eye-to-eye all the time, and even less frequently will I be playing perfect poker
Now after that enormous derail, I feel I can post another hand!! This one is just for lawlz, though:
Drunk, aggressive, and hopefully rich (because of how much he was losing) player raised from MP to $10 (his standard was always $10 or $15, unclear if there was a reason to the madness). I had JJ on the BTN and there was one caller in between. I elected to 3bet to $30 because I figured the drunk guy would either shove (not uncommon) or call, and the guy in between would fold. Drunkard called, other guy folded, and we went to the flop:
Flop: JT3r
He insta-shoved the flop (he typically shoved to fold people off of hands - yes he was VERY bad), and I snap-called while trying not to drool all over my cards and chips.
He gives me this kind of surprised look (I had been folding to most of his aggression when I held mediocre hands) and turned over T5o. I took it down without further incidence.
I've run into disappointingly few of this type of player.
Right click on him and mark him as a fish.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
ARGH WHERE'S MY HUD?!?!?!!
But in all seriousness, I am getting to the point where I've gone enough times that I know who the regulars are, and although I can't remember a ton about their play individually, it still helps to know who definitely has a clue and who most likely doesn't.
So I've been trying to brainstorm ideas to bring up for discussion in here, and I think I have my first good one:
3-Bets
What should I be 3betting for value live? Pots are often multiway by the time they get to me with an opportunity to 3bet, which makes things trickier. I've also sort of just been assuming that bluff 3betting will never be profitable against most players since the biggest thing about $1/$2 is that people don't fold.
I sort of figure that I can 3bet for value significantly wider than I have been, but it's so hard to convince myself of that since when other people 3bet they are almost always SUPER strong. 3bets seem to always be JJ+, and 4bets basically always KK+, weighted a bit toward AA. And yet 3bets get called like nobody's business.
Anyway, that's that. I also figured I'd try to throw something else fun in here, like a "Best Quote of the Session" type thing, but I don't know that I have anything too great yet. My favorite thing from last session was this:
I raise MP with TT and a very tight player in the SB 3bets to a bit under 3x. I say: "Wow. I guess that means you've got queens, kings, or aces... so I guess I have to fold my tens..." And I muck face up. One older guy sort of snorts derisively at my folding tens.
The tight SB says "which one do you think it is?" I say "queen queen," and he shows QQ. The old guy shakes his head and says "How can you fold that?? How can you raise $12 with ten ten and fold to a re-raise??" And I say "cause he had queen queen."
But in all seriousness, I am getting to the point where I've gone enough times that I know who the regulars are, and although I can't remember a ton about their play individually, it still helps to know who definitely has a clue and who most likely doesn't.
So I've been trying to brainstorm ideas to bring up for discussion in here, and I think I have my first good one:
3-Bets
What should I be 3betting for value live? Pots are often multiway by the time they get to me with an opportunity to 3bet, which makes things trickier. I've also sort of just been assuming that bluff 3betting will never be profitable against most players since the biggest thing about $1/$2 is that people don't fold.
I sort of figure that I can 3bet for value significantly wider than I have been, but it's so hard to convince myself of that since when other people 3bet they are almost always SUPER strong. 3bets seem to always be JJ+, and 4bets basically always KK+, weighted a bit toward AA. And yet 3bets get called like nobody's business.
Anyway, that's that. I also figured I'd try to throw something else fun in here, like a "Best Quote of the Session" type thing, but I don't know that I have anything too great yet. My favorite thing from last session was this:
I raise MP with TT and a very tight player in the SB 3bets to a bit under 3x. I say: "Wow. I guess that means you've got queens, kings, or aces... so I guess I have to fold my tens..." And I muck face up. One older guy sort of snorts derisively at my folding tens.
The tight SB says "which one do you think it is?" I say "queen queen," and he shows QQ. The old guy shakes his head and says "How can you fold that?? How can you raise $12 with ten ten and fold to a re-raise??" And I say "cause he had queen queen."
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
There was no one decent at the table, but yeah, I am trying to develop a habit of never showing, haha.
G
GWU73
Visionary
Silver Level
Just one pointer about playing in late position, .. . .ie the J7 hand:
Being in late position allows you to see what happens ahead of you. In this hand someone has raised, 2 others have called (likely with better hands than yours), you have a terrible hand with mega big pot losing potential, and you are in late position. This is where the power of positions helps: You fold. Your only flop that gives you sufficient reason to commit is one that gives you a full house or quads. Every other hand you get all in with J7s is likely to be MUCH worse than you expect. 4th best flush, 2nd straight, 2 pair vs trips or better 2 pair, weak or medium draws vs nut draws or made hands, etc... etc...
Being in late position allows you to see what happens ahead of you. In this hand someone has raised, 2 others have called (likely with better hands than yours), you have a terrible hand with mega big pot losing potential, and you are in late position. This is where the power of positions helps: You fold. Your only flop that gives you sufficient reason to commit is one that gives you a full house or quads. Every other hand you get all in with J7s is likely to be MUCH worse than you expect. 4th best flush, 2nd straight, 2 pair vs trips or better 2 pair, weak or medium draws vs nut draws or made hands, etc... etc...
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
one thing you should realise about live is due to the prevalence of limping, raising is actually a much stronger and narrower range than online, equally people dont pillage as wide and very rarely steal light
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
It's been noted - thanks duggs.
I think one of the reasons I am loving live so much (despite not quite crushing yet) is that I am constantly learning WHILE playing. I pick up something new every session, or at least expand my knowledge in some way.
I have an interesting hand incoming later but don't have time to post it right now. Hopefully I'll get to it later today.
Thanks for posting, guys.