BenjiHustle
Legend
Silver Level
I feel like a lot of people missed the point of this being about playing fixed limit. In all that talk about pot odds, it's very unlikely that the pot odds actually suggest that you fold on the flop when you have 4 to a flush when you're playing limit. If 4 get to the flop and it's one bet to go to the turn, you're always going to have odds to play on.
Fixed limit is a different kind of tough because you have to be able to let your hands go when the bets get big on turns and rivers. The general rule in limit games is to get rid of your hand earlier than later, because you don't want to be spewing off big bets. You should be happy to get beyond the flop and let it go. If you were playing no limit, your flush draws would be worth a lot more.
Playing limit (at low limits, that is) is all about making the nuts and is most profitable in H/L games where you can scoop pots against unknowing players. Hold Em has never been a limit game in my opinion, though it started as such. If you like limit, though, there are a TON of Stud, Razz, Omaha, HORSE, and Draw games that are FULL of people who have no idea what they're doing. Play to scoop pots in a H/L limit game and you can make a come up pretty quickly.
Fixed limit is a different kind of tough because you have to be able to let your hands go when the bets get big on turns and rivers. The general rule in limit games is to get rid of your hand earlier than later, because you don't want to be spewing off big bets. You should be happy to get beyond the flop and let it go. If you were playing no limit, your flush draws would be worth a lot more.
Playing limit (at low limits, that is) is all about making the nuts and is most profitable in H/L games where you can scoop pots against unknowing players. Hold Em has never been a limit game in my opinion, though it started as such. If you like limit, though, there are a TON of Stud, Razz, Omaha, HORSE, and Draw games that are FULL of people who have no idea what they're doing. Play to scoop pots in a H/L limit game and you can make a come up pretty quickly.
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Swickster007
Rock Star
Silver Level
I usually play flush draws two ways off the flop. I will shove if its just 1on1 almost every time. If there's more players, I like to check/call if its reasonably cheap. I try to think of how I play the reverse role, as if I didn't have the flush draw, but hit a two pair or something....how would I play my hand that way...and think about what would make you fold.
EvertonGirl
Professional Fish
Loyaler
On a good day I will fold a FD if the pot odds tells me to fold, but there are a lot of days where I have a total brain fart and just chase, chase, chase and the majority of the time I miss, miss, miss. It is a major leak of mine. The majority of the time if you are not getting 4-1 or better muck them, especially on the turn.
IntenseHeat
Legend
Bronze Level
I personally don't like to get involved with speculative hands. They tend to get me in trouble when I catch a piece of the flop and am reluctant to fold or pick up a draw that I feel obligated to chase. I know a lot of players out there love suited connectors because they have a chance of flopping either a straight draw or flush draw or both. Others are willing to get involved with any two suited cards. The truth is that being suited only improves the strength of your starting hand by two or three percent. To me that's not enough to justify wasting my chips in hopes of hitting bingo on the flop.
Of course we know how many players are reluctant to fold any ace at all. But when they see a suited ace, they immediately see the possibility of hitting the nut flush. Let's say you do flop two cards that match your suit, and pick up a flush draw. With two cards to come, you have a one in three chance of completing your flush, which doesn't seem that bad. It's actually 35%. Which means that there is a 65% that you will lose the hand if you are behind on the flop. That means that two out three times that you chase your flush draw, you will lose. Those odds drop to 20% on the turn. That means that eight out of ten times you will fail to hit your flush on the river.
Of course pot odds are important in deciding whether or not to chase your flush draw, or at least they should be. I won't even bother getting into that because the simple fact is that the majority of online players are ignorant of, or just choose to ignore pot odds. In fact many players will shove all-in on the flop with a flush draw. A lot will call the flop with only one card matching their suit on the board in hopes of picking up a flush draw on the turn, at witch time they will be willing to call off or shove their stacks in on a draw even though there is an 80% chance that they will lose.
It's not like people don't hit. I've flopped two pair and even sets, only to have someone shove all-in on me with a flush draw and hit. I've also seen players shove 50xBB into a 15xBB pot with a flush draw. As many times as I've seen it done, it still amazes me that people will throw away their stacks on a draw that way, without any regard for pot odds. All they know is that they have nine outs. But that's if no cards of that suit have been dealt to other players or burned. And I'm talking about no limit. When we start talking about fixed limit, I really don't see any way to get someone off a flush draw. Let's say that they would ever consider the possibility of laying down a flush draw, you simply can't bet enough for them not to be getting the proper odds to call. This is why I never play fixed limit hold'em.
The way I see it, my range is my range. I play the hands that fall into my range and if they just happen to be suited, then I consider that a bonus. If I'm getting the right price (good pot odds), then I'm perfectly willing to chase that draw. As for calling off my entire stack or shoving all-in with a flush draw, I think that's a donkey move. A donkey will call or shove and then point out that they had outs. Really good players are looking to get their chips in when they think they are ahead. They're not looking to get them in on a draw.
Of course we know how many players are reluctant to fold any ace at all. But when they see a suited ace, they immediately see the possibility of hitting the nut flush. Let's say you do flop two cards that match your suit, and pick up a flush draw. With two cards to come, you have a one in three chance of completing your flush, which doesn't seem that bad. It's actually 35%. Which means that there is a 65% that you will lose the hand if you are behind on the flop. That means that two out three times that you chase your flush draw, you will lose. Those odds drop to 20% on the turn. That means that eight out of ten times you will fail to hit your flush on the river.
Of course pot odds are important in deciding whether or not to chase your flush draw, or at least they should be. I won't even bother getting into that because the simple fact is that the majority of online players are ignorant of, or just choose to ignore pot odds. In fact many players will shove all-in on the flop with a flush draw. A lot will call the flop with only one card matching their suit on the board in hopes of picking up a flush draw on the turn, at witch time they will be willing to call off or shove their stacks in on a draw even though there is an 80% chance that they will lose.
It's not like people don't hit. I've flopped two pair and even sets, only to have someone shove all-in on me with a flush draw and hit. I've also seen players shove 50xBB into a 15xBB pot with a flush draw. As many times as I've seen it done, it still amazes me that people will throw away their stacks on a draw that way, without any regard for pot odds. All they know is that they have nine outs. But that's if no cards of that suit have been dealt to other players or burned. And I'm talking about no limit. When we start talking about fixed limit, I really don't see any way to get someone off a flush draw. Let's say that they would ever consider the possibility of laying down a flush draw, you simply can't bet enough for them not to be getting the proper odds to call. This is why I never play fixed limit hold'em.
The way I see it, my range is my range. I play the hands that fall into my range and if they just happen to be suited, then I consider that a bonus. If I'm getting the right price (good pot odds), then I'm perfectly willing to chase that draw. As for calling off my entire stack or shoving all-in with a flush draw, I think that's a donkey move. A donkey will call or shove and then point out that they had outs. Really good players are looking to get their chips in when they think they are ahead. They're not looking to get them in on a draw.
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swingro
Legend
Silver Level
In fixed limit poker never fold them. Never. Not even when you think you draw dead. You have odds without the need to extract some more on the river. If the flush draw is a monster draw you can even go crazy yourself untill the river. It is obvious. Maybe you are runnig bad. On the long run you will hit them exactely the amount of time you are supposed to.
In no limit there are a lot things to consider . Fold equity, how strong your flush draw is , what other outs you have, position etc. Flush draws are not played the same every time.
In no limit there are a lot things to consider . Fold equity, how strong your flush draw is , what other outs you have, position etc. Flush draws are not played the same every time.
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JamaicanKid
Visionary
Silver Level
I really love this advice!! thanks alot
T
tomnovember
Visionary
Silver Level
So... Why don't you consider semiblufffing with your flush draw sometimes? While it is based on the folding equities and pot odds.
ILIKEFISH31
Rock Star
Silver Level
This.
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Cymro
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It's much better to go after them if the flop hit you some other way, for instance you made bottom pair with your other card, or have a straight draw to go with it.
For example when
You have
Villain holds:
Flop comes:
You're still 43% to win the hand.
If you're playing a pair with an Ace high flush draw, your odds of winning are usually never lower than 40%, and in many cases you're actually a favourite.
For example when
You have
Villain holds:
Flop comes:
You're still 43% to win the hand.
If you're playing a pair with an Ace high flush draw, your odds of winning are usually never lower than 40%, and in many cases you're actually a favourite.
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