€5 NL HE 6-max: Good or bad fold? What would you do differently?

[SrMartis]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.02/$.05

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

VP$IP

46

PFR

2

AF

32

Currency

€

Villain Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 46/2/32
iPoker - €0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3 : http://www.holdemmanager.com

BB: €5.77 (144.3 bb)
UTG: €4.56 (114 bb)
MP: €1.81 (45.3 bb)
CO: €4.56 (114 bb)
BTN: €2.19 (54.8 bb)
Hero (SB): €5.74 (143.5 bb)

Hero posts SB €0.02, BB posts €0.04

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.06) Hero has Th Ts
3 folds, BTN calls €0.04, Hero raises to €0.16, fold, BTN calls €0.12

Flop: (€0.36, 2 players) 7h Tc 6c
Hero bets €0.36, BTN calls €0.36

I made this bet to give him the incorrect oods to pursuit his flushes ou straights draws he may had in his range.

Turn: (€1.08, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, BTN bets €0.54, Hero calls €0.54

For me this turn card was really bad, I thought If the had nothing he'll probably check back this hand.
To my surprise he bets and I made this call because if I hit any other pair I could stack him off with a full house.

River: (€2.16, 2 players) 3d
Hero checks, BTN bets €1.13, Hero folds

I thought this river card completes another couple of straight combos in his loose range.
So I decided to fold.

Results: €2.16 pot (€0.14 rake)
Final Board: 7h Tc 6c 4c 3d

BTN wins €2.02

 

[canbora]

Bud ..... Now I mean I reserve the fact that because you know your villain ( hopefully and supposedly).... And there's always the fact that you could be right.... But with that being said....


Why on God's green ocean-filled earth would you fold that hand?? You had an absolute monster. You had top set.


Edit: I mean I sat here and thought about it for a second and I reread your post again... If anything I'm banking on the fact that he may have possibly had a straight. I would buy that more than him having a flush. And the fact that this hand is here means that it was up in the air. I get it, you said that he was loose. But just for confirmation is this very common for him? As in he is always showing down with like low gapped connectors? And he usually enters the pot the same way with these?

Lol ... I guess I'd have been making this call. but if I was sitting in your position knowing the villain probably not I guess. One of those armchair commando type guesses. It's easy to sit here. But yeah I mean, you had a monster.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Out of position you can go even larger, but 4BB is not terrible.

Flop
I definitely want to bet here, but not sure I want to go full pot. It sounds like, you want him to fold draws, but thats not, why we bet the flop. We bet it for value, which mean, that worse hands call, and on this board that will include a lot of draws.

Turn
Not an ideal card of course, but I think, top set is still strong enough to bet. But check-calling is an ok alternative.

River
With this runout I am ok check-folding the river.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
Out of position you can go even larger, but 4BB is not terrible.

Flop
I definitely want to bet here, but not sure I want to go full pot. It sounds like, you want him to fold draws, but thats not, why we bet the flop. We bet it for value, which mean, that worse hands call, and on this board that will include a lot of draws.

Turn
Not an ideal card of course, but I think, top set is still strong enough to bet. But check-calling is an ok alternative.

River
With this runout I am ok check-folding the river.

You guys must be far better poker players than I'll ever be. I know that it's difficult to make decisions from this standpoint being an armchair commando. I mean make big lay downs all the time. And maybe I would here too I don't know. But, man, that top set just really hits me.

But anyway. I came back here because I forgot a comment comment. But you hit part of it... To the original poster, yeah your logic is off here with why you were betting the flop. You want to charge people for their draws. You're going to have to get hit in the face sometimes playing poker. You have to take risks and get value out of your extremely strong flops like this. You have the nuts at this point. It's different in different situations where you may be correct to do that, but that time isn't here. But you also don't want to go too much. I would be perfectly fine with you even checking here. But the bet is the best. 1/3 to 1/2 pot.

After here is where it starts getting murky. Yeah I mean I don't like that turn card. I'm totally okay with check calling. I'd also be okay with raising a little bit to see where you're at. I think either is fine

The river is where it does get scary yeah I admit that, I think my first reaction was wrong... Perhaps. Maybe. LOL. I know a raise would be incorrect, for this villain. Anybody else I think I'd be raising. But you said this guy likes these kinds of hands and boards....sooooo..... And if I'm calculating this right at this point with his bet sitting in there. That's approximately 75 big blinds? Is that correct. I also missed that first time around too. That's a massive pot that's 3/4 of a stack. As a matter of fact now that I'm thinking about it for the third time that is a quite significant piece of information. Seeing these raw data hands throws me off, I was talking about this in another thread because you have to convert everything, it's easy to miss something, everybody playing different kinds of games.

You have four to a straight, and three to a flush. Yeah I mean I get it. But.... I don't think a call would be insane. But it probably is incorrect. You probably did the right thing.

Good job

 

[fundiver199]

Why on God's green ocean-filled earth would you fold that hand?? You had an absolute monster. You had top set.

Hand strength is always relative, and top set is not a monster, when there are 3 cards to a flush and 4 to a straight. Its like having JJ on a Q high board with 3 to a flush, and I dont think, any poker player would call that a monster. And its important, that we change the way, we classify our hand, when the board changes, so that we dont get married to our hand, just because it was strong on an earlier street.

In this case Hero had a strong hand preflop, but probably not strong enough to stack off for 55 bigs against someone playing VPIP 46 / PFR 2. If this player had limp-reraised, hero should seriously consider folding, unless it was a min-click or something. On the flop Hero had the second nuts (98 was the nuts) and should be happy to get it in, if the Villain had raised.

On the turn Hero still had a value hand, but it had moved more towards thin value. If Hero had bet and gotten raised, it would still be a call, but more like a sigh-call or pot-odds call, where Hero would expect to often be behind but at least have equity with 10 outs to a boat. On the river though Hero only had a bluff catcher. The hand was no longer good enough to bet for value. So even if Hero had kept the initiative on the turn, the river line would still be check and hope, the opponent checks back.

And if the opponent bets, regardless who had the initiative on the turn, Hero is strictly bluff catching, if he call. Occationally a player like this might be so bad, he cant read the board, because its 4NL, which is likely the cheapest game in the room. And in that case maybe once in a moon, he bets two pair or a worse set and thinks, its for value. But other than that Villain either has at least a straight, or he is bluffing.

And this hand is not a good bluff catcher. When bluff catching we of course need to beat bluffs, but other than this blockers are more important than absolute hand strength. And on this board we really want to have a high diamond, if we are considering bluff catching. So hands like AdTs or AdAs are much better candidates to make a hero call on the river than ThTs.

In top of that this is also not an opponent type, we want to do a lot of bluff catching against, unless we have some reads or stats not mentioned in the OP. He is playing a lot of hands but only raising 2% of them preflop, so at least preflop his strategy is not to make people fold. There are some exceptions, but most of the time this also carry over to postflop. Which mean his strategy is basically to try to make a strong hand and then bet it for value.

So unless we have postflop stats showing a lot of aggression, like a high donk bet percentage, or a high aggression factor, then we should assume, that when this player bet the late streets (turn and river), then he most likely has exactly, what he is representing. And if we fold our bluff catchers to those bets, we are not getting exploited. On the countrary we are exploiting him for not incorporating bluffs into his strategy at a nearly high enough frequency.

 

[Station_Master]

It sucks but I think you have to fold the river even to villains terrible sizing.

Preflop you bet too small and on the flop you bet way too big. When you pot it and he calls he likely has 98 , a flush draw, set or the last T. Yes you beat Tx and sets but they are unlikely to bet turn and river on this board so I think you are beat over 75% of the time here so have to fold.

 

[Station_Master]

I said buttons sizing was terrible but actually re reading this I can see he was short stacked and looks like put all the money in!

 

[canbora]

Hand strength is always relative, and top set is not a monster, when there are 3 cards to a flush and 4 to a straight. Its like having JJ on a Q high board with 3 to a flush, and I dont think, any poker player would call that a monster. And its important, that we change the way, we classify our hand, when the board changes, so that we dont get married to our hand, just because it was strong on an earlier street.

In this case Hero had a strong hand preflop, but probably not strong enough to stack off for 55 bigs against someone playing VPIP 46 / PFR 2. If this player had limp-reraised, hero should seriously consider folding, unless it was a min-click or something. On the flop Hero had the second nuts (98 was the nuts) and should be happy to get it in, if the Villain had raised.

On the turn Hero still had a value hand, but it had moved more towards thin value. If Hero had bet and gotten raised, it would still be a call, but more like a sigh-call or pot-odds call, where Hero would expect to often be behind but at least have equity with 10 outs to a boat. On the river though Hero only had a bluff catcher. The hand was no longer good enough to bet for value. So even if Hero had kept the initiative on the turn, the river line would still be check and hope, the opponent checks back.

And if the opponent bets, regardless who had the initiative on the turn, Hero is strictly bluff catching, if he call. Occationally a player like this might be so bad, he cant read the board, because its 4NL, which is likely the cheapest game in the room. And in that case maybe once in a moon, he bets two pair or a worse set and thinks, its for value. But other than that Villain either has at least a straight, or he is bluffing.

And this hand is not a good bluff catcher. When bluff catching we of course need to beat bluffs, but other than this blockers are more important than absolute hand strength. And on this board we really want to have a high diamond, if we are considering bluff catching. So hands like AdTs or AdAs are much better candidates to make a hero call on the river than ThTs.

In top of that this is also not an opponent type, we want to do a lot of bluff catching against, unless we have some reads or stats not mentioned in the OP. He is playing a lot of hands but only raising 2% of them preflop, so at least preflop his strategy is not to make people fold. There are some exceptions, but most of the time this also carry over to postflop. Which mean his strategy is basically to try to make a strong hand and then bet it for value.

So unless we have postflop stats showing a lot of aggression, like a high donk bet percentage, or a high aggression factor, then we should assume, that when this player bet the late streets (turn and river), then he most likely has exactly, what he is representing. And if we fold our bluff catchers to those bets, we are not getting exploited. On the countrary we are exploiting him for not incorporating bluffs into his strategy at a nearly high enough frequency.

Right of course.... but theres just something about this hand, either its unusual or I didnt take it correctly (probably the latter), which as I said, i corrected myself, but it looks like Station Master also took it differently as well, twice. So... somethings unusual here.

I THINK why I didnt take it this way was two main reasons with several minor ones. 1. I got confused with all the money amounts and failed to realize this was for 75 bigs, at point of last bet. 2. Normally, I feel between just because of the odds of likelyhood, you're not beat here. But against this villain, yeah... I see it. And if I were playing id HOPE i would have too. haha. When 4 cards to either a straight or flush come thats within a persons range, its hits you right in the gut when you had what was PREVIOUSLY a monster. In this case top set. And in this instance, we have 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush. Things are looking rough for us.

 

[Poker Orifice]

What value hands do we beat? (sets)
What bluffs does villain have in his range? (any?)


BUT with BTN sitting only only 50bb, I probably call but mostly due to spazz factor. (it's in euros, 5nl, 50bb's and they're limping otb)

And where do we see villain is playing 43/2 or whatever Fun stated?

 

[canbora]

What value hands do we beat? (sets)
What bluffs does villain have in his range? (any?)


BUT with BTN sitting only only 50bb, I probably call but mostly due to spazz factor. (it's in euros, 5nl, 50bb's and they're limping otb)

And where do we see villain is playing 43/2 or whatever Fun stated?

up top in the stats of the original post. .......its.........its a lot of dry information. Its easy to miss this stuff. Its why I prefer to tell my hands in story mode as much as possible, I think its easier for the brain to process things in sequence as it progresses.

 

[Poker Orifice]

up top in the stats of the original post. .......its.........its a lot of dry information. Its easy to miss this stuff. Its why I prefer to tell my hands in story mode as much as possible, I think its easier for the brain to process things in sequence as it progresses.

ah okay. Thanks.
And I see it is definitely on iPoker (ie. Titan). And for this reason >>> "I call"

 

[Aballinamion]

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.06) Hero has Th Ts
3 folds, BTN calls €0.04, Hero raises to €0.16, fold, BTN calls €0.12

Flop: (€0.36, 2 players) 7h Tc 6c
Hero bets €0.36, BTN calls €0.36

How do you do student? Hope you are enjoyig the forum. Keep close attention to what our forum mates say, most of guys that post here on the cash thread are very serious and good players.
Going to the hand, preflop our 3-bet is fine, we are not calling too much from the SB. This flop is good but not awesome.

I made this bet to give him the incorrect oods to pursuit his flushes ou straights draws he may had in his range.

This c-bet flop is perfect because we must protect our range from the flushes. If the opponent is a flush chaser it will continue paying regardless the odds we give it and this is good for us.

Turn: (€1.08, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, BTN bets €0.54, Hero calls €0.54

This turn sucks. I'm not sure if we should be calling here, we might find a fold for we are not going to draw to a full house very often.
Before thinking only about the math side "we have odds this and that", let's think "okay, we are calling here now and what we are going to do on most of rivers that we miss our full house?", or "can we float this villain on this specific board". "we should really call here?". These are a few questions we must make before entering to a calling situation. The mathematical side is important, of course, but most of times we must use our common sense and instincts.

For me this turn card was really bad, I thought If the had nothing he'll probably check back this hand.
To my surprise he bets and I made this call because if I hit any other pair I could stack him off with a full house.

River: (€2.16, 2 players) 3d
Hero checks, BTN bets €1.13, Hero folds

As I said before, we already knew that most of river cards would suck and we would've to fold. So, next time we find ourselves on a spot like this, we do not "call to see", we simply fold on the turn and wait for a better spot where we can extract value with our top set.
Hope you are good, prepare for the next lesson on sunday, asnwer the questions and so long!

 

[SrMartis]

Thanks for all aswers.

I see some call and some folds.

I'll investigate other hands this guy played and provide more information, maybe based on more study the decision could be diferent after that.

 

[John A]

Flop sizing isn't great. Bet turn. Against a fish I don't hate a block bet / fold. Sometimes these guys are VBing two pair and don't understand they probably shouldn't be. But as played, X/F is ok.

 

[SrMartis]

After reviewing some hands played aganist this guy, I could identify these traits:

Here's my notes:

Limp JJ and mini raise with overpair, weak hand or top pair, he had a tendency to mix passivity and overagression with overpair.
I saw him playing mini raising with a straight, with 3 cards of same color in the board.

On the other hand, he simply pays off any bet, with any size with his bottom pair, so I see a lot of dominated calls.

I've seen him many times defend weak aces in 3 bet pot, donk bets top pair with weak kicker in 3bet pot, some times donk betting small with top pair too.

He was pursuiting any flush draw he had.

In conclusion, he could be playing like that with top pair but I had 3 T so its was rare.

Maybe If he had a straight with these 3 clubs he could hold back, and he was pursuiting any flush draw.

Even after this review, I think in this spot is fold.

 

[canbora]

After reviewing some hands played aganist this guy, I could identify these traits:

Here's my notes:

Limp JJ and mini raise with overpair, weak hand or top pair, he had a tendency to mix passivity and overagression with overpair.
I saw him playing mini raising with a straight, with 3 cards of same color in the board.

On the other hand, he simply pays off any bet, with any size with his bottom pair, so I see a lot of dominated calls.

I've seen him many times defend weak aces in 3 bet pot, donk bets top pair with weak kicker in 3bet pot, some times donk betting small with top pair too.

He was pursuiting any flush draw he had.

In conclusion, he could be playing like that with top pair but I had 3 T so its was rare.

Maybe If he had a straight with these 3 clubs he could hold back, and he was pursuiting any flush draw.

Even after this review, I think in this spot is fold.

You're probably right. I think that it is in fact a tough call though. Its not so clean and easy as a straight fold, but a fold probably still was best. I mean.............at this level, I've seen people do near anything with anything with anything showing on the board. So I don't think a person would fault a call at all, but yeah you're probably right. Even if it was situationally right it was scenario correct, if that makes sense. I've seen people on boards just like this raise and reraise with nuts vs second nuts, I've seen them do it with any two pair vs two pair, I've seen with it with top pair and absolute stone cold bluff. Theyre just clicking buttons. So yeah, not out of the realm of possibility but the pure math of the situation, you were probably beat.