$4 NLHE 6-max: QQ strange line gets squeezed

[Stu_Ungar]

Note i have on him says he flat called with KK in bb,and flat called AQs in position.

Well now Id def flat. He slowplays some big hands so he is more likely to have air and old to a raise.

Its not a case of trying to not run into AA here its a case of him not having much worse he calls your raise with but having tonnes of hands he is going to have to bluff at flops with.

 

[Jurn8]

We can shove even if he has KK+ AK but we should also decide if thats the most profitable way of playing. To put it another way, with a high value hand, if we couldnt profitably shove we couldnt consider a profitable call.

So being as its a profitable shove we can also look at the merits of calling

his call shoving range is far different to his original squeezing range

shoving may not be profitable if we say his range is KK + ,AK but flatting and him cbetting and we jam or continue ,getting him to fold AK wiffed etc and air is profitable.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

woops I calculated wrong, but we have big overlay vs. JJ+/AK and he's surely calling wider than that.

I dont think so

He flats some big hands so his 3bet range has more air than usual. A taggy guy who flats KK and 3bets 7% isnt calling off stacks with much worse than that.

 

[ChuckTs]

His calling range isn't the only consideration. We make lots from the dead money when he folds too. I'd say IF either ships light over a 4bet then fine, go ahead, but typically a flat/small 4bet vs a squeeze is the nuts and most regs know this and will fold stuff like 99. IME they never fold it when you shove though since people do that so often with small pairs and random jams when they think people are ****ing around. 4nl players don't squeeze J9s because they think it's a good spot. They 3bet TT because they have a big-ish pair and heard aggression is good, and they can't fold to a shove.

I shove, as played.

That said, I just 3bet pf. %100 f3b over 300 hands from a tighter player is like hands? Maybe? Not enough to assume 3betting QQ to stack it isn't going to be massively profitable. I also tend to hate reading about flats in these spots when I know hero should be 3betting villain wide to manipulate villain and get more info on his 3bet/4bet game, and thus 3betting QQ should be a slam dunk since we should have history.

If you're not sure about whether 3betting QQ is profitable co/btn vs anyone looser than like an 8/7, then you should probably just be 3betting it, willing to stack.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

his call shoving range is far different to his original squeezing range

shoving may not be profitable if we say his range is KK + ,AK but flatting and him cbetting and we jam or continue ,getting him to fold AK wiffed etc and air is profitable.

What that means is if his 3bet range were so narrow that QQ were behind it we couldnt flat and somehow outplay that range.

TBH you are never in really really bad shape shoving QQ but I do think flatting is more profitable.

 

[Jurn8]

yeah i cba to do the math on the dead money taylor lol

 

[Stu_Ungar]

His calling range isn't the only consideration. We make lots from the dead money when he folds too. I'd say IF either ships light over a 4bet then fine, go ahead, but typically a flat/small 4bet vs a squeeze is the nuts and most regs know this and will fold stuff like 99. IME they never fold it when you shove though since people do that so often with small pairs and random jams when they think people are ****ing around. 4nl players don't squeeze J9s because they think it's a good spot. They 3bet TT because they have a big-ish pair and heard aggression is good, and they can't fold to a shove.

I agree with you but I think the range you give this guy is off.

I would have thought we were looking at a value depolarised range and he would call with worse.

But one of the questions I posed was what big hands have you seen him flat, I think a guy who flats AQ and KK (at least sometimes) and yet maintains a 7% 3bet range has to be more polarised

Thats quite wierd for 4nl.

So yes 4bet shoving is good in the sense we pick up dead money and flip against his calling range, but flatting IP allows us to pick up more because I dont think he will realise we are flatting strong here. I think he will feel obliged to cbet his air on the flop and if his range is polarised he has a ton of air.

 

[ChuckTs]

yeah i cba to do the math on the dead money taylor lol

My brain is hazy and I've been out of the game but I think he would have to be squeezing well under %3 for us not to be able to stack profitably.

 

[ChuckTs]

Stu: didn't see that he flatted KK. Not that he's always doing this, but sure, i guess it could mean a really bluff-heavy, polarized range, in which case calling is definitely better.

Still, 3b preflop.

 

[Jurn8]

My brain is hazy and I've been out of the game but I think he would have to be squeezing well under %3 for us not to be able to stack profitably.

you need to grind and make serious monies!

please stop wasting talent or give it to me, thankyou

 

[ChuckTs]

Real life gets in the way unfortunately :/

Will be back at it asap.

 

[baudib1]

I can see flatting but tbh I think I'd rather flat AK and never fold.

Problem with flatting is if he has the hands we want him to have the board is going to slow him or us down. Flop comes K-/A- high he'll check back JJ- and we lose value and he shoves his hands that beat us plus bluffs.

 

[Jurn8]

yeah i forgot you mentioned that before!

run goot IRL bro

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I can see flatting but tbh I think I'd rather flat AK and never fold.

Problem with flatting is if he has the hands we want him to have the board is going to slow him or us down. Flop comes K-/A- high he'll check back JJ- and we lose value and he shoves his hands that beat us plus bluffs.

I dont see it that way.

He has to put hands like AK in your range as do you his.

Id prefer to know more about his flop agression but lets say flop is A92.

He checks, you have the nuts!

He bets, well he has so much air in his range and the ace is such a great scare card he probably bets it with 100% air on the flop, so you can call against that range. If he bets the turn.. he probably wont be aggro enough to tripple barrell bluff with 62o so you can fold. That ace was coming anyway so you have saved some money!

 

[Stu_Ungar]

To put that into context a bit, I flat 3bets much wider than I used to because I felt flatting was more profitable than 4betting most value hands. I do it IP and can literally count on 1 hand the number of times I have not faced a cbet.

People who 3bet bluff a lot cbet 100% of flops

 

[acky100]

Why is it so definitely a 3b pf Chuck? Just because of the small sample of 360 hands? If you knew villain had folded 9/9 times in this sample (i asked Joe as i was confused on why its an obvious 3bet) would you be more inclined to flat pre or would you still keep 3betting until you had an even larger sample of 3bet hands? If i thought we were going to get squeezed a lot here i would be even more inclined to flat pre but if the original raiser only had a 3bet sample of say 3/3 then i would 3bet pre also.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Real life gets in the way unfortunately :/

Will be back at it asap.

Hopefully it will be soon dude

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Why is it so definitely a 3b pf Chuck? Just because of the small sample of 360 hands? If you knew villain had folded 9/9 times in this sample (i asked Joe as i was confused on why its an obvious 3bet) would you be more inclined to flat pre or would you still keep 3betting until you had an even larger sample of 3bet hands? If i thought we were going to get squeezed a lot here i would be even more inclined to flat pre but if the original raiser only had a 3bet sample of say 3/3 then i would 3bet pre also.

I would imagine Chuck 3bets this guy a lot with junk as he folds a lot so he 3bets hands like QQ because he is preying that this is the time the guy 4bets light.

If you havent been 3betting this player much I cant see the point in 3betting a player who is just going to fold tonns.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

btw there used to be a really good video on stox about this, cant remember the guys name who did it.

 

[ChuckTs]

Why is it so definitely a 3b pf Chuck? Just because of the small sample of 360 hands? If you knew villain had folded 9/9 times in this sample (i asked Joe as i was confused on why its an obvious 3bet) would you be more inclined to flat pre or would you still keep 3betting until you had an even larger sample of 3bet hands? If i thought we were going to get squeezed a lot here i would be even more inclined to flat pre but if the original raiser only had a 3bet sample of say 3/3 then i would 3bet pre also.

I 3bet pf because I don't have info to say this isn't a typical HYPER profitable spot to get money in with QQ. The sample isn't big enough to mean anything to me yet. In general I'm just thinking: CO ranges are wide, and people at 4nl don't fold pairs. 3bet for value, stack because we're getting a good price, and be happy about it.

 

[baudib1]

I dont see it that way.

He has to put hands like AK in your range as do you his.

Id prefer to know more about his flop agression but lets say flop is A92.

He checks, you have the nuts!

He bets, well he has so much air in his range and the ace is such a great scare card he probably bets it with 100% air on the flop, so you can call against that range. If he bets the turn.. he probably wont be aggro enough to tripple barrell bluff with 62o so you can fold. That ace was coming anyway so you have saved some money!

Who flats AK on the button?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

AJ then (some ace that neither of you have)

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Who flats AK on the button?

Actually I can think of tonns of spots where I would flat AK on the BTN.

Why 3bet it against a guy who folds too much?

Against a guy who folds way too much and rarely calls OOP he is almost never continuing with worse so its not a value raise.

Its a pointless bluff when we can fold out 22-77 most of the time simply because we will be aggressive with our overcards postflop.

It also prevents us from getting value from hands like KJ KQ AQ AJ when we hit.

 

[bgomez89]

Its a pointless bluff when we can fold out 22-77 most of the time simply because we will be aggressive with our overcards postflop.

It also prevents us from getting value from hands like KJ KQ AQ AJ when we hit.

If we're against an opponent who rarely calls oop and folds to much, i'd see AK as a good 3bet bluff hand. What's wrong with my thinking?

 

[Pascal-lf]

It kind of does.

You want to 4bet and get shoved on by worse. You dont want to 4bet and have
him fold down to a range you flip with do you?

IMO 5betting > 4betting small. You aren't playing against some reg here, you are playing against a brain dead 4NL player. Good luck inducing, when he sees a 4bet he'll think "the 4th bet is always AA" and fold stuff like JJ/TT/99 which are far more likely to call a weird looking shove where he's more likely to think "he's trying to get me to fold".

If we are flipping with his calling range then its not hugely profitable: its BREAKEVEN.

Why take a hand as strong as QQ and play it in a way thats breakeven?

It's not breakeven because of the dead money, but obviously we want to play it in the most profitable way.

We can shove even if he has KK+ AK but we should also decide if thats the most profitable way of playing. To put it another way, with a high value hand, if we couldnt profitably shove we couldnt consider a profitable call.

So being as its a profitable shove we can also look at the merits of calling

I think there are some situations where you can profitably call but can't profitable shove - vs really small 3bets for example where the whole point of calling is because you know your opponent is too strong pre to attempt to bluff but where you can stack/bluff him post.

I dont see it that way.

He has to put hands like AK in your range as do you his.

People don't always think about ranges, and I doubt a 17/12/1.3 thinks about ranges much. Unless you've been really nitty wrt 3betting then I think he'll discount AK a fair bit, as well as QQ/KK/AA. We don't even know if he uses a HUD, and your range on the BTN for peeling a CO open is super wide and your explanation of CO folding to 3bets too much wouldn't even cross his mind if he doesn't have those stats in front of him.

If we're against an opponent who rarely calls oop and folds to much, i'd see AK as a good 3bet bluff hand. What's wrong with my thinking?

Why would you ever want to 3bet bluff with AK? Always 3bet for value - you flip with/crush/have OK equity against pretty much every hand (apart from AA obv).