Tough Decision Process – What Do You Do?

[duggs]

also a minor point but villain didnt overbet shove, the shove was for 80% of pot

 

[rdm4k]

because villain is extremely unlikely to bluff turn, or do so with proper sizing, so we can check back flop, and value bet turn and river if he checks turn, and fold otherwise. we arguably miss some value against some of his range, but being able to not put money in bad v his Kx combos is pretty handy, and lots of turn cards create 2nd best hands for us to value bet. there shouldnt be that many combos of flush draws compared with Kx hands, and he has a bunch of small pairs that have virtually no outs so free cards arent a big deal.

alright nice point. I like it even though it's not my favorite line.

@overbet - yep, misread

 

[rumsey182]

with these stack sizes ( everyone has about 30BB correct?) i would make it 5x pre and check this flop as well. Your really putting yourself in a very bad pot stack ratio by cbetting on this texture and saizing ( if i cbet here it is like 1.8K bc if he doesn't have a K he likely folds so if he is inelastic i want to exploit that) but seems like a spot where delayed cbet would work to a very high % and if he leads the turn we can call as we have kept all the weaker parts of his range in the hand and he likely will stab with them


by cbetting the flop and checking the turn ( which you likely will basically do on every turn unless your pushing) you define your range as weak and basically give up your positional advantage in the hand

 

[rdm4k]

with these stack sizes ( everyone has about 30BB correct?) i would make it 5x pre and check this flop as well. Your really putting yourself in a very bad pot stack ratio by cbetting on this texture and saizing ( if i cbet here it is like 1.8K bc if he doesn't have a K he likely folds so if he is inelastic i want to exploit that) but seems like a spot where delayed cbet would work to a very high % and if he leads the turn we can call as we have kept all the weaker parts of his range in the hand and he likely will stab with them


by cbetting the flop and checking the turn ( which you likely will basically do on every turn unless your pushing) you define your range as weak and basically give up your positional advantage in the hand

Nice point

probably this is the spot where I would have lost lots of chips but as played i would have bet turn to take the pot over him - when checked twice - unless particular reads. Might be my leak playing too much aggression in this spot even thought i previously put lots of fd in his range.

Definitely check flop >> bet flop unless u would have played in bet bet (turning our hand in a bluff on the turn and investing 1/3 of our stack overall. And yeah, the only added value I can see in teh 2nd line is the worth of the fold equity showing such strenght. Betting flop e turn he wouldnt be too happy to call down even Kx with such a strong action)

 

[ssbn743]

with these stack sizes ( everyone has about 30BB correct?) i would make it 5x pre and check this flop as well. Your really putting yourself in a very bad pot stack ratio by cbetting on this texture and saizing ( if i cbet here it is like 1.8K bc if he doesn't have a K he likely folds so if he is inelastic i want to exploit that) but seems like a spot where delayed cbet would work to a very high % and if he leads the turn we can call as we have kept all the weaker parts of his range in the hand and he likely will stab with them

by cbetting the flop and checking the turn ( which you likely will basically do on every turn unless your pushing) you define your range as weak and basically give up your positional advantage in the hand

Against a weak player from MP that limped/call – checked, you want me to check the flop back?

I don’t think so, and I don’t care what the board texture is; a C-bet wins the pot >80% of the time here.

I could have turned my C-bet into more of a probe bet and wagered something like $1,500 thereby saving myself money if he makes his hand and it would have given me the same information - but I also cost myself value against the majority of his range.

Bottom line - I’m not checking the flop here, we’ve got to find out where we are and that’s already hard to do; it will get much harder if I give a MP weak/passive player with a huge range free cards.

 

[duggs]

What free cards are you worried about him getting?

 

[duggs]

Finding out where we are is a bad reason for betting

 

[ssbn743]

What free cards are you worried about him getting?

A heart!

If I bet and he calls, I know there are certainly hearts in his range but there are many other hands as well. If I check and he barrels turn, or I bet turn and he calls, I don’t really have any idea and have to fold. As played, at least I have some rational for calling and winning against a portion of his range.

Checking the flop certainly makes the decision easier – but for the wrong reasons.

 

[duggs]

If he checks turn you can eat turn and most rivers for value, if he bets turn on a blank you can fold. He doesn't have that many pure flush draws compared with pairs and Kx

 

[ssbn743]

If he checks turn you can eat turn and most rivers for value, if he bets turn on a blank you can fold. He doesn't have that many pure flush draws compared with pairs and Kx

True but that brings us right back to the beginning. There are lots and lots of 2 heart and Kx combos in his range – I can only beat ~50% of his range if you define his range with 2 heart, Kx, and pairs below JJ.

I don’t want to give free cards and I want to find out if he has he King - I don’t see how checking back the flop accomplishes either goal. To me it seems like a give up slide and forces me to fold with a “he must have a King rational”.