Ever wondered what "M" is...

[shrimp29]

I know it will improve my game..thanks

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

If you wait for an M of 1-5 before shoving,you have no fold equity



Snow

You dont have to wait for an "M" of 1-5 to shove, but if you happen to let yourself get there, your only option is in all in or fold game, is the point im putting across. Im sure you know that though.

I just need to post to say, in this thread, i am not telling people how to play, im not telling people to get their "M" to a specific amount, then shove.

I am just trying to help people out, on how to understand what "M" is, and how to interpret it into their game.

Using the kinda chart i made in the OP, its just sayig, to find out what "M" you have, this way you can find out, how you should be playing i the tournament.

For example, say your playing well but havt been picking up any hands, so you quikcly check your "M" and ZOMG its 6, you need to start playing an all in or fold game, because raising leave yoursef with no Fold equity to re shoves.

later on when i have time. I think im going to make an Example for each level of "M" with fake situations, to show you all what i mean.

FTP

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I know it will improve my game..thanks

No problem, im glad i could help

FTP

 

[Leo 50]

FTP

Thanks for the post, I read the Harrington books on "M" and I have to agree with you on this approach.
Far too often I see players trying to make a move based on their chip stack.
Stressing out over the average stack size.

I have been criticized on tables for waiting too long to shove when short stacked (last night for example) only pick the right spot, double up and end up at the final table.

People need to be aware of both their BB situation, as well as their "m" and play accordingly

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

FTP

Thanks for the post, I read the Harrington books on "M" and I have to agree with you on this approach.
Far too often I see players trying to make a move based on their chip stack.
Stressing out over the average stack size.

I have been criticized on tables for waiting too long to shove when short stacked (last night for example) only pick the right spot, double up and end up at the final table.

People need to be aware of both their BB situation, as well as their "m" and play accordingly

No Problem, im glad you agree and we are both on the same wavelength on how and when to use M.

Also Congrats on the FT

FTP

 

[shrimp29]

I tried it today with some luck..going to read the book next..thanks for the post

 

[SystEmsuX]

"M" is a bilabial consonant in classic and modern languages. Thanks, Dan Harrington!

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I tried it today with some luck..going to read the book next..thanks for the post

No Problem sir, glad it could help you

FTP

 

[kidkvno1]

FWIW, that links proves my point more than yours, if you read through that properly you will see that that doesnt even tell youto revert to AI or fold until your M is 1-5, which is what i have stated in my OP.

My Strat has nothing to do with SS play, it is present in all areas of a tournament.

In no way is there any need to shove an "M" of 15, it is way too high.

You say you start to feel uncomfortable at "M" of 10. That is standard aswell, and thats basically what is coming accross in the OP. You should start to feel uncomfortable with your stack, yet you should still preserve your chips because you still have just enough time to pick your spots well.

I did read your post and thought about it alot, and i spoke to others about your post, and it was the majority opinion that "M" of 15 is too high to be shove folding. Also that most people start to feel uncomfortable at "M" of 10.

All these reasons are exactly why i posted this. To help people feeling uncomfortable in these positions. And hopefully improve their game by interpreting M.

Kid, you seem to be referring to "M" when calling an all in. When someone has pushed all in onto you (like the loose big stck you are referring to in your post) M no longer applies, because if they hae you covered, it then simply comes down to your reads, and whether you think your getting it in good or not, we are more talking equity than "M" when considering calling an all in. "M" only applies when your thinking about making your move.

Considering Dan Harrington was the person to bring "M" famously into the game of Poker, it is more likely that this is correct imho. I have used this for a good year now, and its significantly improved my game, and i feel it can significantly inproe others games, such as it already has with WetYeti.

Gl at the tables

FTP

Cool, Thanks for making it clear..
So i can wait a-bit longer before i start shoving and pick a better spot to do so.
I hope PC reads this thread.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Yes exactly Kid

PokerChild is wayyy to stubborn to even look at learning poker, he thinks hes phil hellmuth

FTP

 

[salim271]

Shoving with an M of 15 is pretty high but with position its fine, I guess its kind of a preemptive strike against becoming a shortstack, I would probably do it a lot if the antes wre high enough to be worth it. How many times per rotation do you guys think a person could get away with it from position (BTN, CO) or when folded to SB? At the bubble only stealing from tight players, eventually I always get called down by other medium stacks with like ATo in the BB when I have something like K7s in position. Would the tight player do that if it didnt already look like I was stealing as I had done it before?

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Shoving with an M of 15 is pretty high but with position its fine, I guess its kind of a preemptive strike against becoming a shortstack, I would probably do it a lot if the antes wre high enough to be worth it. How many times per rotation do you guys think a person could get away with it from position (BTN, CO) or when folded to SB? At the bubble only stealing from tight players, eventually I always get called down by other medium stacks with like ATo in the BB when I have something like K7s in position. Would the tight player do that if it didnt already look like I was stealing as I had done it before?

Just dont shove with an "M" Of 15 period

Trust me in the long run its never gonna work it out for you, whihc by your post it would seem your finding out.

The point of my post is, if you look at the chart, like you said in late position. Say you have an "M" of 15, and you are say CO with A9, you can afford to make a steal at the blinds without shoving, still leaving you like a 10-13~ "M", you dont need to shove to steal the blinds, sometimes this comes accross as weaker than a standard raise, and again referring to the OP, leaving yourself with "M" of 10-13 isnt all that bad, if all your doing is attempting a steal, your leaving yourself well enough back to be able to fold to a re raise, and also leaving yourself anough back, to be able to pick good spots, and hopefully get it in good, and increase you stack significantly.

GL

FTP

 

[bazerk]

Im Actually going to post how important of a point that actually is wetyeti

When playing a tourament, and its a leak in alot of peoples games i believe is instead of taking your "M" into consideration, you instead, take the size of your stack in comparison to the average stack of the tourney and the biggest stack of the tourney.

This is something you should try not to do, whats important in an MTT is how many BB's you have and picking your spots correctely, you should ignore the fact that 1st place may have an "M" of around 100 because then when you look at your stack and see you have an "M" of lets say for the sake of this argument 25, you may think your not that comfortable when actually, if you refer to the OP you will see that with an "M" of 25 you are incredibly comfortable. And if you pick the right spots, and make the right raises taking your "M" into consideration you too could have an "M" of 85 in the later stages of the MTT.

So please, make sure it is your "M" that makes you decide whether you have a good stack, not your stack compared to the average stack and big stack

Gl at the tables

FTP

:icon_thum Good post/thread FTP_TheNuts...really like how you included this^^.

For me, relative-chip-stack size is more of a key factor for the table I'm @ for decision making (do I wanna bluff the big stacker or steal the blinds from a short stacker or does my M indicate I have sufficient chips to choose a better spot for well-timed aggression).

Overall-tourney-relative-chip-stack size can change @ any point in time; for example I was in a 7500-peep T$ Freeroll & had ~2 orbits with $9.5K chips >>> @ break, 1/2 hr later, I was 1/19 with $1.2M chips (ended up finishing 9/7500 due to being overly aggressive once we hit the Final Table...sheesh) by being patient & picking the 'right' spots to make a move...if I had been paying attention to the overall-tourney-chip stacks (w/o consideration of M) I would have panicked since I was still 20 away from the 45-ITM spots when @ $9.5K chips).

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

:icon_thum Good post/thread FTP_TheNuts...really like how you included this^^.

For me, relative-chip-stack size is more of a key factor for the table I'm @ for decision making (do I wanna bluff the big stacker or steal the blinds from a short stacker or does my M indicate I have sufficient chips to choose a better spot for well-timed aggression).

Overall-tourney-relative-chip-stack size can change @ any point in time; for example I was in a 7500-peep T$ Freeroll & had ~2 orbits with $9.5K chips >>> @ break, 1/2 hr later, I was 1/19 with $1.2M chips (ended up finishing 9/7500 due to being overly aggressive once we hit the Final Table...sheesh) by being patient & picking the 'right' spots to make a move...if I had been paying attention to the overall-tourney-chip stacks (w/o consideration of M) I would have panicked since I was still 20 away from the 45-ITM spots when @ $9.5K chips).

Im so glad that what ive posted is actually helping a few people out, im gld to hear it and congrats on the FT/7500 people.

GL at the tables

FTP

 

[kidkvno1]

Im so glad that what ive posted is actually helping a few people out, im gld to hear it and congrats on the FT/7500 people.

GL at the tables

FTP

It will, i know it will help me keep cool now..
Thanks, GL at the tables

 

[jernest]

I have a decent working knowlegde of M - the question(s) I have is this:

What does M stand for?
Why not T or O or Z?

Petty b.s., I know, but it has irked me a bit. Trivial details do that to me from time to time.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I have a decent working knowlegde of M - the question(s) I have is this:

What does M stand for?
Why not T or O or Z?

Petty b.s., I know, but it has irked me a bit. Trivial details do that to me from time to time.

I have no idea, i guess its like saying, why on a graph is it the Y and X axis, why not P and Q, its just what its called i guess, there might be a reason behind it, but its not realy the important thing lol

 

[wetyeti]

I've already stated how beneficial this has been but I need to bring up what happened last night in a tourney.
I tried to keep my M above 20 for the whole tourney. When my M was that high I would just play sick tight unless circumstances allowed otherwise. Of course this is not how you win but it worked out alright. When my M dipped below 18 I opened up my range quite a bit and was able to steal and resteal more effectively than in the past. Hands like KQ, Ax, KJ, QJ, became way more profitable for me. The image I set up with M >20 set m up for great bluffs and steals. So when my M was below 20 it didnt stay there very long. I made the FT with an M of 23 and finished 2nd.

I started taking other players M into consideration and would put pressure on stack with an M 10 - 12 and avoid pretty much anyone else unless I had a hand.

I know it was only one tourney, not a great sample but the simple awareness of my stack and others definitely gave me an edge over most of the other players.

Thanks again

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I've already stated how beneficial this has been but I need to bring up what happened last night in a tourney.
I tried to keep my M above 20 for the whole tourney. When my M was that high I would just play sick tight unless circumstances allowed otherwise. Of course this is not how you win but it worked out alright. When my M dipped below 18 I opened up my range quite a bit and was able to steal and resteal more effectively than in the past. Hands like KQ, Ax, KJ, QJ, became way more profitable for me. The image I set up with M >20 set m up for great bluffs and steals. So when my M was below 20 it didnt stay there very long. I made the FT with an M of 23 and finished 2nd.

I started taking other players M into consideration and would put pressure on stack with an M 10 - 12 and avoid pretty much anyone else unless I had a hand.

I know it was only one tourney, not a great sample but the simple awareness of my stack and others definitely gave me an edge over most of the other players.

Thanks again

man, you don't realise how much i love this great feedback, im so happy its working out for you

Im glad you've been able to take the advice, and the strategy, put it in to action and be successful on more than one occasion.

Congrats on your success, and i hope it continues.

Thanks for your feedback

FTP

 

[rollnutilt]

This is a great post. Ty now I know what the M stands for and this will help me in MTT greatly...

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

This is a great post. Ty now I know what the M stands for and this will help me in MTT greatly...

I am glad to hear it, Thank you

FTP

 

[paumarhas]

wow very well put, easy to understand and to the point. BRAVO

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

wow very well put, easy to understand and to the point. BRAVO

Thank you, im going to try and make a post of soe hand examples soon, if that ill help you in anyway make sure you check back a few times to see if i have done it

Thanks FTP

 

[the lab man]

I have a decent working knowlegde of M - the question(s) I have is this:

What does M stand for?
Why not T or O or Z?

Petty b.s., I know, but it has irked me a bit. Trivial details do that to me from time to time.

The M came from the inventor of M factor Paul Magriel(famous for his quack quack bets) and later Dan Harrington Improved it

The Wikipedia link gives great insight on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ratio

Great Posts FTP_TheNuts keep them coming

 

[naruto_miu]

Well I must say, Thank You FTP (Seriously), Cuz I have never been able to comprehend this "M" Subject (Hence-forth, Why I suck Like ass), And I swear you broke it down so Relatively easy to understand, and very well Articulated...Now I do have 1 question, and that is, Even though the formula is quite simple to do, it still requires time correct? So there-fore I was wondering do you by any chance know of any Free "M" Calculators?