High stakes poker season 7 is a disgrace.

[NeverTilt]

No it is not.

You are not playing against a single hand, you are playing against a range of hands. Just because you are ahead this one time doesn't mean you shouldn't be folding. If villain plays a bluff the same way he plays his value hands then you have no idea whether he is bluffing or valuebetting. The key is in knowing how often these players will be bluffing compared to how often they will be valuebetting and if it is heavily weighted towards the value end of their range, you can certainly find a fold.

My definition of a bad fold is when you fold with the best hand. Plain and simple. If a nit pushing allin with a 3 high busted flush makes you fold ace high, that's a bad fold too. Of course, 99% of good players won't make the call, but it's always a bad fold when you muck the best hand just like it's a bad call when you have the worst hand. When you play good players, there'll be times you have no idea whether they're bluffing or not. That's where the hero-call came from. Bad fold doesn't mean bad player.

 

[dmorris68]

My definition of a bad fold is when you fold with the best hand. Plain and simple. If a nit pushing allin with a 3 high busted flush makes you fold ace high, that's a bad fold too. Of course, 99% of good players won't make the call, but it's always a bad fold when you muck the best hand just like it's a bad call when you have the worst hand.

No, sorry, you're playing poker on a basic level if this is your way of thinking. You're focusing on the cards instead of the person and the situation. Strategically, what ScottishMatt said is spot on.

Bad fold doesn't mean bad player.

This we can agree on. Where we disagree is that you absolutely CAN make a good fold with the best hand.

 

[duggs]

basic example, i shove 1000bb into a pot, I do this with 77+ and AK. you hold 66 and its a good fold v some hands but not v others? its a good fold regardless. we play v a range of hands not an individual hand

 

[doomasiggy]

My definition of a bad fold is when you fold with the best hand. Plain and simple.

You're HU. Villain open shoves, you have TT. You know he's only shoving with QQ+/AK, so you fold. He shows AK. Is this a bad fold?

 

[dresturn2]

Folding quads is a bad fold especially when there is a bad beat jackpot

 

[dmorris68]

Folding quads is a bad fold especially when there is a bad beat jackpot

I think it's safe to say that nobody short of a billionaire playing in the the One Drop is folding quads, ever.

 

[Micro Maven]

yall are talking past each other. Obviously folding the best hand is a bad fold. ALWAYS. But poker is a game of imperfect information, so, sure, in the long run you want to make the "best play." Which includes folding the favorite on occasion.


And that video as evidence of a great play is ridiculous. From what cameras have shown of cash game Chan he's Johnny Tightwad. He's also not an idiot so you can't just say to yourself, "Oh, he's raising me now cause he has 3 Aces!" He's not picking that river to bet his straight, he's not floating that turn to bluff with air and there really aren't any value hands that 77 can beat. Laak also has a pretty snug table image himself and he knows Chan knows this, which all plays into it.

Anywho, yeah, Season 7 sucked

 

[dmorris68]

yall are talking past each other. Obviously folding the best hand is a bad fold. ALWAYS.

Wrong. Either you didn't read the last several posts, or we just talked past you.

 

[goldy_lordy]

Dwan is missing frome the series... that's why

 

[lulu pk]

I dont think that Dwan is a good poker player.Hi constantly loose big amount of money.
Its easy to say that they play bad,when you can see the cards.

 

[0Magic14]

You should consider the game dynamic always my friend, it makes always a huge difference. And who knows, maybe they both felt the same. A set and then

Yes I have to agree with this statement, they will have tones of reads from the players who they are folding against, remember these players are the worlds elite and have played the game for a LONG time and have played maybe Xamount of tournaments - cash hands.

 

[NeverTilt]

No, sorry, you're playing poker on a basic level if this is your way of thinking. You're focusing on the cards instead of the person and the situation. Strategically, what ScottishMatt said is spot on.
This we can agree on. Where we disagree is that you absolutely CAN make a good fold with the best hand.

It sounds to me like you're playing poker at the basic level. Yes, we all know about putting people on hands using their shown ranges. But, obviously most players are not robots meaning they will mix up their play, and every single good poker player bluffs. I mean, what is the definition of a hero call? It's not a hero call when you call an aggressive bluffing donkey with middle pair. It's a hero call when you call the nit's allin bluff with ace high. Come on, now!
If folding the best hand in the situation is a "good fold", then obviously you are saying calling with the best hand is a "bad call".
You guys seem to have too much ego and want to justify your play. Bad fold doesn't mean bad player. It means you folded with the best hand, period. We all make bad folds regularly.

 

[ScottishMatt]

If folding the best hand in the situation is a "good fold", then obviously you are saying calling with the best hand is a "bad call".

If you hold TT and your opponent shoves. You know that his shoving range is JJ+/AK. You know that you have 33% equity. Do you sincerely think that if you call and he shows AK, that it is a good call?

 

[supernuts25]

thats what makes them pros they can get off big hands. sometimes youll fold the best but if you feel your behind its a good fold not like online when over pairs go all in for all there chip. i dont like risking my whole chip stack on one pair. and if you limp in with those hands and the board is ugly sometimes you just need to say goodbye. ive tried and trap with those now and again sometimes it backfires where im folding them

 

[NeverTilt]

If you hold TT and your opponent shoves. You know that his shoving range is JJ+/AK. You know that you have 33% equity. Do you sincerely think that if you call and he shows AK, that it is a good call?

Short answer is yes. If I felt from his facial expression and time taken to go allin and other factors that he had AK, I'd obviously call. If not, I'd fold. It sounds like you guys are online players. There is more to poker than ranges & equity. It's all situational.

thats what makes them pros they can get off big hands. sometimes youll fold the best but if you feel your behind its a good fold not like online when over pairs go all in for all there chip. i dont like risking my whole chip stack on one pair. and if you limp in with those hands and the board is ugly sometimes you just need to say goodbye. ive tried and trap with those now and again sometimes it backfires where im folding them

I find it easier for non-poker pros to fold big hands and harder for them to call with small hands. I think that's what separates the pros: they're able to make more hero calls than us. When watching high-stakes poker, that is definitely the #1 thing that stands out to me.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Short answer is yes. If I felt from his facial expression and time taken to go allin and other factors that he had AK, I'd obviously call. If not, I'd fold. It sounds like you guys are online players. There is more to poker than ranges & equity. It's all situational.

I'll use the same argument you use. You mentioned a good player is going to balance his range and mix it up. A good player is also not going to give off reads. He is going to play it the exact same way whether he has AK or AA. That is balancing his play in a situational manner, not just through ranges & equity.

So we have a good player, who's range has you crushed, who balances his play well. You know you are crushed over the long term, but you sincerely think that if you called and were ahead this one time, that you played it good?

 

[pokerclann1]

I have been watching the season 7 these days and cant believe the kind of hands the "pros" have been folding. I have seen 3 pros folding an over pair against an amateur and all of them had the best hands. Doyle folded QQ, phil laak folded AA on a 8 high flop lol and then even though he technically didnt have the best hand but the 2010 WSOP champion folded QQ after laak folded his AA which had given him the best hand.

And then some player I dont know his name folded KK on a Q high flop against greenstein. I aint watching the rest of the episodes this is just ridiculous.

It seems obvious to me that the stakes are well beyond the comfort level of most players except the businessmen.

yeah the stakes are too high for doyles comfort zone :thefinger

 

[NeverTilt]

I'll use the same argument you use. You mentioned a good player is going to balance his range and mix it up. A good player is also not going to give off reads. He is going to play it the exact same way whether he has AK or AA. That is balancing his play in a situational manner, not just through ranges & equity.

So we have a good player, who's range has you crushed, who balances his play well. You know you are crushed over the long term, but you sincerely think that if you called and were ahead this one time, that you played it good?

Im talking about info, not reads. U make it sound like if he twists his oreo, then he has aces. Lol. Like i said, its situational, and the call depends on many factors. But to say folding everytime is a good fold is obviously just a way to pat ureself on the back.

Last night i raised 4xbb w/QQ in late position. Sb calls and utg goes allin for 40xbb. I sat and thought about it for awhile and folded because i put him on aces or kings. Is it a good fold? If he had kk or aa, then yes. If he had anything else, then no. Plain & simple.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Im talking about info, not reads. U make it sound like if he twists his oreo, then he has aces. Lol. Like i said, its situational, and the call depends on many factors. But to say folding everytime is a good fold is obviously just a way to pat ureself on the back.

Last night i raised 4xbb w/QQ in late position. Sb calls and utg goes allin for 40xbb. I sat and thought about it for awhile and folded because i put him on aces or kings. Is it a good fold? If he had kk or aa, then yes. If he had anything else, then no. Plain & simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with some form of "feel-good factor". If calling loses me money over the long term then I'll avoid calling.

You are obviously not going to alter your viewpoint on this. No matter how many successful and respectable players/members tell you otherwise.

 

[dmorris68]

But to say folding everytime is a good fold is obviously just a way to pat ureself on the back.

Who said "everytime?" Nobody said every fold they make is a good one, LOL. Just that you can make a good fold with the best hand.

You are obviously not going to alter your viewpoint on this. No matter how many successful and respectable players/members tell you otherwise.

This x1000. It's pretty much why I had given up on this discussion. Was going to post as much, but decided it was a waste of my time. Still is, I suppose.

 

[donkysnake]

obviously, without gabe kaplan and aj this show its almost like 50% of its all fun and complexion. i dont think its about some good players missing, like other say (dwan or ivey) ... if u look back at the season 1,2,3 this show was at it best years and there were no dwan or ivey (ivey apperead in season 2 i think in some episodes) but otherwise there were some good players like negreanu and laak, but most important this players where fun to watch and with some briliant comentanting and jokes from gabe and aj it was amazing times back then.

 

[sam1chips]

I dont think that Dwan is a good poker player.Hi constantly loose big amount of money.
Its easy to say that they play bad,when you can see the cards.

Dwan plays rather unorthodox-ally, and has often gotten himself into spots where he ends up bluffing into a made hand, and losing a lot of money. But then his reputation ends up getting him paid off on hands like this above (as he could easily be doing that with no hand at all).

And for the record, I'm assuming that Dwan has won more $ than you have from poker.

I also agree with the last part though. It's an easy game when you can see everyones cards

 

[dmorris68]

Yeah they lost the flavor of the show when they booted AJ. Love Gabe, but he needs his straight man for his schtick to work. The chemistry between them helped make the show, and it just wasn't the same with Gabe on his own. And I like Norm McDonald too, just not as a poker commentator.

But what ultimately killed the show and others like it was Black Friday. pokerstars and FullTilt sponsored most of these shows and backed many of the players, and after BF they couldn't be seen promoting themselves in a US market (FTP's solvency issues aside, as they'd have likely imploded without BF anyway).

 

[Micro Maven]

Wrong. Either you didn't read the last several posts, or we just talked past you.

You could not be more wrong. He defined "bad fold" and you simply responded with, "no, that's not true." He quantified his use of the term, you can't just say that's not correct. What you can do is give your definition, which you did, and they are different. But he isn't wrong. Hence, you two were talking past each other.

 

[trekmaster]

Its easy to be critical on this side of the camera but a whole different beast when your under the pressure on the other side.