Outrageous Stack discussion

[Arjonius]

Thing is, it works for me.

If you win more when playing with a half stack than a full one, you almost certainly have some kind of problem in your game, likely in the mental part.

If you don't win more playing with a half stack, then no, it doesn't work, not in terms of maximizing profit.

 

[Arjonius]

Not to hijack your thread even more but I have noticed that I tend to play a lot better with a 50 BB stack as well. As soon as I build enough that I am comfortable bringing in 75 BB or 100 bb then I tend to **** up and start spewing left and right. Its also not just that I am better at making the shallow stack decisions, because when I have brought in 50 BB and accrue a semi large 200+ BB stack I seem to (for the most part) play fine. So its not just as simple as I don't know how to play with a larger stack, maybe its how others react to you.

Since you say you spew when you buy in for 75+ bb, it seems reasonable to assume you don't know how to play a larger stack. If so, is this not a leak, possibly a big one, in your game?

And yes, part of improving your big stack play involves understanding that some opponents t play differently vs large and small stacks, recognizing who and how each one changes, and adapting appropriately to each. It's not simple. Be thankful it isn't because the fact it's not gives you the opportunity to gain an advantage over opponents who decline to do the work required to improve because they decide it's not easy enough.

 

[dj11]

Thread hasn't quite gone the way I envisioned, but the title still works, so I am not unhappy.

I just woke, and under many circumstances I might have already be in a HORSE game, eyes barely opened, and certainly under-caffeinated. There are days I do well with this garden fresh mindset, but lately a few more that don't go well. It is sort of a crap shoot, but I do understand the luck factor, which you all want to call variance (while there may be some perceptual differences, they are essentially the same phenomenon [IMO] the biggest difference is luck is easier to spell).

Yes, I always question my mental game. It is never at a fixed point in the space time continuum. (Watching Dr.Who at the moment). Every day/session I have to re-evaluate where it is. Multiple bad beats and tilt go along with this as well. Sometimes variance seems to favor me, sometimes not, and learning how I am dealing with it in the now, is part of waking up on the day. So I don't consider my mental game as something that needs fixing but always needs to be gauged (and thus reacted to).

As for my short stack starting scheme. It suits my somewhat conservative approach to the game (even tho I am a die-hard liberal). I limit my loses. If luck favors me, I only lose 1/2 of a full BI before I am at a full BI stack. Easy price to pay. Benefits of my scheme are more play/$, and a pretty fast self-evaluation/hands played.

Stats for Zone at Bovada are not collected for PT4 so I can't show any stats. Unfortunate, really, something seems to have changed with my game lately and I can't objectively quantify it. I am doing less well at tourney's and doing better at ring (6 max Zone). For me that is a huge change.

 

[duggs]

don't see why $/play and evaluation differ.

drop stakes, evaluation shouldn't change

 

[dj11]

don't see why $/play and evaluation differ.

drop stakes, evaluation shouldn't change

LOL, AFAIK, bovada doesn't offer anything below 5nl Zone. Play money maybe, but I don't even look for those games anymore (except at Stars where they spread a BIG O play money game). But, to be fair, I did use play money games for that daily evaluation of 'things'. That too served me well.

 

[psy0nyd3]

Since you say you spew when you buy in for 75+ bb, it seems reasonable to assume you don't know how to play a larger stack. If so, is this not a leak, possibly a big one, in your game?

And yes, part of improving your big stack play involves understanding that some opponents t play differently vs large and small stacks, recognizing who and how each one changes, and adapting appropriately to each. It's not simple. Be thankful it isn't because the fact it's not gives you the opportunity to gain an advantage over opponents who decline to do the work required to improve because they decide it's not easy enough.

I do spend time reading strategy articles to improve but other than learning how to make +EV moves there isnt much finesse I can learn in the micros as far as I know. I feel like I play the same when I have my big stack but with effective stacks shallow I can make those decisions easier. I know its a leak. Totally working to change it but I wont deposit a BR big enough to buy in full at 5 NL cause I make $10/hr so I dont feel like I can digitize over a days worth of wages without a guaranteed return. Maybe the reason I think its harder to profit when buying in full is that I have done it much less so I have a skewed perspective.

 

[vinylspiros]

In for stack discussion. IMO huge stacks make me feel like they might be good players, but stats are all that really affect my decision making. I might tighten up my preflop stacking range if me and villain are both 200+ BB deep. To only AA(lol).

Other than that im not that influenced by opponents stack sizes.

 

[dj11]

In for stack discussion. IMO huge stacks make me feel like they might be good players, but stats are all that really affect my decision making. I might tighten up my preflop stacking range if me and villain are both 200+ BB deep. To only AA(lol).

Other than that im not that influenced by opponents stack sizes.

Once you get to 200bb's how does your game change?
...(assumes max BI is 100 bb's)...

 

[vinylspiros]

Once you get to 200bb's how does your game change?
...(assumes max BI is 100 bb's)...

In all honesty, i dont really have too much experience with 200+ BB stacks because whenever i double up( im talking about cash games here because thats what i play), i jump out and reopen with a new 100BB stack. I do this for variance control because i dont have too much experience playing deep stacked.


but for the times that i have played deep stacked,meaning me having won like 3 or 4 or 5 buy ins at zoom without jumping out, i have noticed my play is exactly the same. the thing is,as someone might have mentioned earlier , that i think i have noticed that my raises get a bit more respect because people may be assuming that, due to stacksize, that i am a good player.


Not too many people like to challenge big stacks because i think that there is a subconscious feeling that big stacks are not afraid to bet bigger and call looser.


All in all, i dont think having a deep stack is a problem, except for the fact that if we are not good players and maybe over-value our hands ,that there is a bigger possibility for us to lose 2 buy ins with one shot.


EDIT: i know duggs is a deepstacked expert but the difference is that in the games he plays everyone is deepstacked. And i believe there is a different dynamic between everyone being deepstacked cause they bought in that way , and different when only one of the two players is deep because he won the extra BB's. If both players arent deep, then i dont think the way hands play out are too different than if they were both 100BB deep.

 

[redwards92]

original buyin is irrelevant during hands only thing that matters is effective stack.

When effective stacks are deeper my range for flatting/calling bets preflop gets wider and I get my stack in way less with non nutted hands

 

[dj11]

Can we expect fewer or more air bluffs against us?

 

[duggs]

Can we expect fewer or more air bluffs against us?

it won't make a difference, opponents that are good enough to have some semblance of balance will know it makes no difference, fish still won't bluff enough and spazzes will still spazz

 

[loafes]

What's with the people saying they play tighter deepstackd. Deep stacks = wider range imo

Obviously with the exception of stacking off in which case you'll want to tighten the stacking off range.

 

[duggs]

i think people are saying they get stacks in tighter, which is obviously true since the bb we are getting in is getting larger and larger