€400 NL HE Full Ring: Trips in Multiway Pot

[kdmeteor]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$2/$4

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

This was another hand played in a Casino. I felt like I didn't really know what I was doing here; I don't have a good mental model of hand strength in cases where several people limped.
Hero is in the SB with . Lojack and Hijack (=Villain) limp. Hero limps. BB calls. (Pot=4BB.)

Flop: . Hero checks. BB checks. Lojack checks. Villain bets 3BB. Hero calls. BB and Lojack fold. (Now headsup with Pot=10BB; hero is OOP.)

Turn: . Hero bets 3BB. Villain calls. (Pot=16BB.)

River: . Hero checks. Villain checks; mucks.

So Preflop, I don't have a calling range from the SB if I'm first in or if someone raised before me, but I do like calling when someone else limped before me and I have a suited hand. In this case two people limped, which should make the call even better; seeing the flop has to be worth half a BB.
On the Flop, I almost never open when I'm not the preflop aggressor, so I didn't here. When Villain bet, I thought at the time that I should probably raise but somehow rationalized a call just because it felt safer. But my guess is still raising.
The Turn is where I'm really lost because I think a flush is likely. My thought process was, if I bet small and Villain has the flush, they'll raise me and I can fold, whereas if I check, they could bet with any 4 or pocket pair or even a high diamond. So I bet small. But man, I have no idea.
On the River I was still afraid of the Flush, so I just checked. Probably should have bet here?

In general, I find these much more difficult to think about than heads-up pots. People in this casino generally limp very wide especially if people limped before them, so Villain could have almost anything initially. But idk what hands they would stick around with.

 

[Aballinamion]

This was another hand played in a Casino. I felt like I didn't really know what I was doing here; I don't have a good mental model of hand strength in cases where several people limped.
Hero is in the SB with . Lojack and Hijack (=Villain) limp. Hero limps. BB calls. (Pot=4BB.)

Flop: . Hero checks. BB checks. Lojack checks. Villain bets 3BB. Hero calls. BB and Lojack fold. (Now headsup with Pot=10BB; hero is OOP.)

Turn: . Hero bets 3BB. Villain calls. (Pot=16BB.)

River: . Hero checks. Villain checks; mucks.

So Preflop, I don't have a calling range from the SB if I'm first in or if someone raised before me, but I do like calling when someone else limped before me and I have a suited hand. In this case two people limped, which should make the call even better; seeing the flop has to be worth half a BB.
On the Flop, I almost never open when I'm not the preflop aggressor, so I didn't here. When Villain bet, I thought at the time that I should probably raise but somehow rationalized a call just because it felt safer. But my guess is still raising.
The Turn is where I'm really lost because I think a flush is likely. My thought process was, if I bet small and Villain has the flush, they'll raise me and I can fold, whereas if I check, they could bet with any 4 or pocket pair or even a high diamond. So I bet small. But man, I have no idea.
On the River I was still afraid of the Flush, so I just checked. Probably should have bet here?

In general, I find these much more difficult to think about than heads-up pots. People in this casino generally limp very wide especially if people limped before them, so Villain could have almost anything initially. But idk what hands they would stick around with.

I do not play live cash. Also I have no idea how to play NLHE 400, at most I know how to play NLHE 200 online but even so I wouldn't risk.
Not sure if our limp preflop is okay, I wouldn't limp, I would've folded.
The flop is good and we are almost always betting for value. On the turn we should've increased our sizing because if we do believe we own the best hand we must try to extract as most as possible. On the river we are not checking we continue to bet for value and make the pot grow for us.

 

[rhoudini]

Hey kdmeteor! Let me try to help. or at least start to improve the discussion.

Preflop: I don't think it is a big mistake to limp with 63s in a 4-handed pot in a live full-ring game, but I also don't praise it. You will be the first to act in all streets, and some times you may even get in trouble when you hit two pair, trips (with small kicker) or when someone hit a better flush than yours. Also, you might fall into the trap of calling too much when you have a straight or flush draw. You also need to pay attention to the rake. Playing a lot of pots makes you pay more rake, and this is not good. Basically, in SB it is better to play 3-bet or fold, and if nobody raised, you can be the first to raise if you have a good hand. But if you judge that you can stack off some bad player if you hit a big hand, I don't see any problems in limping sometimes, but I still would probably play more connected hands, like 54s, 65s, T8s, etc.

Flop: we hit trips, but despite of being strong, it is still vulnerable to a possible flush draw or if someone has 44. Therefore, I believe we need to be aggressive when we play. We can go for the check-raise. If nobody bets, we should bet 1/2 to 2/3 might be a good amount. When the guy bets 75%, I think we can go for the raise like 12 BB. We are out of position, we need to have more information and also extract value from hands like 88, 77, 55 and flushdraws. Just calling and checking turn gives him the possibility of checking back (because he has position), and we don't want that.
We can check-raise these spots with our semi-bluffs too, like strong straight/flush draws, to balance our range.

Turn: this is a bad turn for us, as it completes possible straights, flushes and even gives 77 a full house now. We need to be careful. If we had check-raised flop, I believe we could go for the check-call or to a bet medium-fold if he raises. With this specific combo, I don't see too many hands that he calls with and that we are winning, though. But as you just called flop, donking bet turn is not good, specially when you bet small. If you check-called flop, you almost always want to check again, hoping that he bets. But imagine if you check and he bets this turn. You have a difficult call, but you need to call anyway. Imagine if he bets pot, or if he overbets you. Now you start to realize how difficult is your position because you did not raise on the flop.
When you bet small and he just calls, you almost always are winning. He might even be trying to hit the flush if he has the A♦ or K♦, but it can also be a small pair, like 55, chasing the straight.

River: the J is almost an indifferent card, because it is VERY unlikely he has JJ for the nuts (he would have raised preflop). If you had the initiative, you could still keep betting (but I think that now he would fold a lot of his junk hands that he has).

 

[kdmeteor]

The flop is good and we are almost always betting for value. On the turn we should've increased our sizing because if we do believe we own the best hand we must try to extract as most as possible. On the river we are not checking we continue to bet for value and make the pot grow for us.

Would you have bet first in, or check-raise? Also if you do bet for value three times and you get raised on the River, do you call?

Flop: we hit trips, but despite of being strong, it is still vulnerable to a possible flush draw or if someone has 44. Therefore, I believe we need to be aggressive when we play. We can go for the check-raise. If nobody bets, we should bet 1/2 to 2/3 might be a good amount. When the guy bets 75%, I think we can go for the raise like 12 BB. We are out of position, we need to have more information and also extract value from hands like 88, 77, 55 and flushdraws. Just calling and checking turn gives him the possibility of checking back (because he has position), and we don't want that.
We can check-raise these spots with our semi-bluffs too, like strong straight/flush draws, to balance our range.

Thanks! I'll remember that and raise next time I'm in a similar position.

Turn: [...]

Yeah this also makes sense to me. It was a bit of a sunk cost fallacy too because I felt stupid about not having raised the Flop, so I raised the Turn where it made less sense. The entire hand was just played very poorly; I tend to become too passive whenever the position feels unfamiliar.

Preflop: I don't think it is a big mistake to limp with 63s in a 4-handed pot in a live full-ring game, but I also don't praise it. You will be the first to act in all streets, and some times you may even get in trouble when you hit two pair, trips (with small kicker) or when someone hit a better flush than yours. Also, you might fall into the trap of calling too much when you have a straight or flush draw. You also need to pay attention to the rake. Playing a lot of pots makes you pay more rake, and this is not good. Basically, in SB it is better to play 3-bet or fold, and if nobody raised, you can be the first to raise if you have a good hand. But if you judge that you can stack off some bad player if you hit a big hand, I don't see any problems in limping sometimes, but I still would probably play more connected hands, like 54s, 65s, T8s, etc.

One thing I should have mentioned is that the rake is actually very low. If the pot is less than 50€ then there's no rake at all (that was the case in this hand), and if it's 50€ then rake is 2€. From there it increases according to a complicated system (can't be a fixed % because the smallest chip is worth 2€). So if you think limping is a close call with cash game rake, the fact that it's less than half as large as in online poker rooms probably makes it worthwhile? I mean I'm not sure, but the combination of low rake and other limpers feels like it justifies it. Again I only consider limping if there are limpers before me.

 

[AdamasDate]

So i would say Limping isnt the strongest play If your not sure about those kinda marginal Its much better to fold and move to the next spot

However if u are gona play it open raise is always better See the standard size raise on the table and make it a little bigger plus x amount of limpers and at least play with the range advantage on some boards high boards u can get easy folds on

 

[kdmeteor]

You really have to make a mathematical argument if you want to convince me that limping is not worth it. It's limping or folding, and I have to contribute .5 BB to a 4BB pot. Am I not gonna realize ~15% equity (which is about what I need due to rake) with 36s OOP? That seems like a stretch. I mean another one of the main arguments against limping is that the BB can just raise and you have to fold every time, but this only matters if the BB does, in fact, raise in that position, which most Casino players almost never do. The GTO case against limping from the SB just doesn't seem to carry over here.

The fact that I've played badly isn't an argument to avoid the position for me; it's more of an argument to figure out how to play better.

Point taken on open raising.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Its ok to complete from SB with any suited hand. Folding would not be a big mistake either, since this is one of the worst possible suited hands.

Flop
You flopped trips but with a very bad kicker, and therefore I dont think, your hand is strong enough to go for a check-raise. I might do that with A6 or K6s, where someone can have the case 6 with a worse kicker, and you can potentially stack them. But here its you, that might potentially get stacked by those hands. I also dont want it to get checked throught though, and therefore my play here would be to simply lead out. There is not such thing as "naturally checking to the preflop limper".

Yes they are probably going to fold out hands like KJ with no draw, but those hands are not putting in chips anyway, unless they happen to improve on a later street. its not like someone is going to limp preflop, which is a very passive play, and then random bluff into multible opponents, when they missed the flop completely. And there are plenty of hands, that can call, like draws, 4X, small pocket pairs.

Turn
As played I dont understand, why you lead on this card? Is it a block bet or something? Typically we want to lead, when we improved, or as a bluff, and here neither of that is the case. This is a bad card for you, because multible draws got there, so the play here is clearly to check and call again. And then evaluate the river, unless you boat up.

River
I would not get here like this, so difficult to say, what I would do. You still have kicker issues, and the J is a scare card to small pairs like 7X or 4X. So probably ok to check and evaluate, if he bet. Mostly check-calling, as the action went down, unless he bet very large like an overbet.