$25 NL HE Full Ring: Misplayed turn in 3bet pot?

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

VP$IP

16

PFR

12

AF

2

Currency

$

Villain Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/12/2
888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.20 - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $22.10 (111 bb)
MP: $8.00 (40 bb)
MP+1: $20.13 (101 bb)
CO: $17.59 (88 bb)
BU: $21.71 (109 bb)
SB: $24.01 (120 bb)
BB (Hero): $21.79 (109 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB with 4♠ A♠
4 players fold, BTN raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $2, BTN calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.10) 6♠ 4♥ 7♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35

Turn: ($6.80) 4♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $5.10, Hero raises to $18.44 (all-in), BU folds

Total pot: $17 (Rake: $0.85)
BB (Hero) wins $16.15

This hand was against a TAG reg (slightly nitty). Seemed a pretty standard check call on flop, amazing turn and I went for check raise instead of the check call - I was torn in game whether I should call or not but was concerned he would just check back 99 or TT at the end, and also that he wouldn't believe my line and call it off given I shouldn't have many 4s. I wonder if check call is better and hoping he bets river, what do you think?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Against a slightly nitty TAG regular why are you 3-betting here? If you had a big sample on him, and his fold to 3-bet is high, then ok maybe. But usually a PFR of 12 means a low fold to 3-bet, since he dont have a lot of junk in his range, that he need to fold to 3-bets. So with the information given I would just call and see a flop.

Flop
C-betting small and check-calling are both reasonable options here.

Turn
There are not many river cards, that are true bricks, other than a 2. Everything else puts a 1-liner to a straight, dubble pair the board, or put potential overcards to his pocket pair. So unless you think, he will empty the clip on the river on a pure bluff, your best chance to get paid is to check-jam now rather than let another card roll off. Sucks that he folded, but I dont think, he let go of anything really strong like say KK or QQ. So quite possibly he would have checked back river or folded, if you went for a check-call turn, donk shove river line.

 

[Station_Master]

Preflop
Against a slightly nitty TAG regular why are you 3-betting here? If you had a big sample on him, and his fold to 3-bet is high, then ok maybe. But usually a PFR of 12 means a low fold to 3-bet, since he dont have a lot of junk in his range, that he need to fold to 3-bets. So with the information given I would just call and see a flop.

Flop
C-betting small and check-calling are both reasonable options here.

Turn
There are not many river cards, that are true bricks, other than a 2. Everything else puts a 1-liner to a straight, dubble pair the board, or put potential overcards to his pocket pair. So unless you think, he will empty the clip on the river on a pure bluff, your best chance to get paid is to check-jam now rather than let another card roll off. Sucks that he folded, but I dont think, he let go of anything really strong like say KK or QQ. So quite possibly he would have checked back river or folded, if you went for a check-call turn, donk shove river line.

The regs fold alot to 3bets, e.g. this guy will fold about 60% of time from BU to 3bets. Yes his PFR is only 12, but this is 9max, he still opens 38% of hands from the BU.

 

[fundiver199]

Yes his PFR is only 12, but this is 9max, he still opens 38% of hands from the BU.

Even at 9-max a 12% PFR is very low and would often mean, people are not positionally aware. Meaning they might have more or less a GTO range from EP, but they are not opening up enough in late position. But if he actually open 38% of hands on BTN, then he dont fit that profile. Of course sample size is hugely important to draw any conclusion about position based stats, and over a sample like 100 hands even VPIP and PFR are not that accurate.

 

[Station_Master]

Even at 9-max a 12% PFR is very low and would often mean, people are not positionally aware. Meaning they might have more or less a GTO range from EP, but they are not opening up enough in late position. But if he actually open 38% of hands on BTN, then he dont fit that profile. Of course sample size is hugely important to draw any conclusion about position based stats, and over a sample like 100 hands even VPIP and PFR are not that accurate.

I find it typical of many regs at 9max, I don't find it exceptionally low - there are plenty of regs who go lower and get the NIT tag! Different HUDs might count actions differently but on H2N a PFR of 12 is not super low.

If he is on the button, there are 6 positions that could open in front of him, and if they do then his RFI will be low, just however much he 3bets (which is only 6% in this case, or even less if there is an open and 3bet ahead). In 6max it will fold around more often so you get to RFI more.

Note I have over 10k hands on this guy!

 

[fundiver199]

I find it typical of many regs at 9max, I don't find it exceptionally low - there are plenty of regs who go lower and get the NIT tag! Different HUDs might count actions differently but on H2N a PFR of 12 is not super low.

Pretty sure all HUDs calculate it the same way, but full ring cash games might have become even more nitty, since I played them regularly 4-5 years ago.

If he is on the button, there are 6 positions that could open in front of him, and if they do then his RFI will be low, just however much he 3bets (which is only 6% in this case, or even less if there is an open and 3bet ahead). In 6max it will fold around more often so you get to RFI more.

RFI means Raise First In. And if I understand it correctly, this stat is only calculated, when you have the chance to do so, which mean no prior action. So from a given seat this should be the same regardless of format or having loose players on your right. VPIP and PFR from a given seat should be lower in full ring though, since there will more commonly be prior action.

Note I have over 10k hands on this guy!

Then for sure you had good information.

 

[Aballinamion]

Villain Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/12/2
888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.20 - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $22.10 (111 bb)
MP: $8.00 (40 bb)
MP+1: $20.13 (101 bb)
CO: $17.59 (88 bb)
BU: $21.71 (109 bb)
SB: $24.01 (120 bb)
BB (Hero): $21.79 (109 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB with 4♠ A♠
4 players fold, BTN raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $2, BTN calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.10) 6♠ 4♥ 7♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35

Turn: ($6.80) 4♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $5.10, Hero raises to $18.44 (all-in), BU folds

Total pot: $17 (Rake: $0.85)
BB (Hero) wins $16.15

This hand was against a TAG reg (slightly nitty). Seemed a pretty standard check call on flop, amazing turn and I went for check raise instead of the check call - I was torn in game whether I should call or not but was concerned he would just check back 99 or TT at the end, and also that he wouldn't believe my line and call it off given I shouldn't have many 4s. I wonder if check call is better and hoping he bets river, what do you think?

Here our 3-bet preflop is good. On the flop we can certainly fire a c-bet because we are the hand aggressor plus we have plenty of equity with our pair and back door flush. On top of that we had made a 3-bet preflop which means we can represent AA, AK, etc.
We can also go for the check raise on the flop since our equity is good but not so good.
I tend to bet more and raise more on spots where I have a dubious equity than in spots where I have plenty of it, e.g, if we had flopped a clean flush draw, a flush draw plus straight draw, etc.
Both of your hands were played fine though, let's not overthink and do what our instincts feel is the best.
Trust yourself, not the rational side but the intuitive side and let the chips flow and fall as they may.
Well played in spite of what I think you should've done.

 

[eetenor]

Villain Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 16/12/2
888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.20 - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $22.10 (111 bb)
MP: $8.00 (40 bb)
MP+1: $20.13 (101 bb)
CO: $17.59 (88 bb)
BU: $21.71 (109 bb)
SB: $24.01 (120 bb)
BB (Hero): $21.79 (109 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB with 4♠ A♠
4 players fold, BTN raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $2, BTN calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.10) 6♠ 4♥ 7♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35

Turn: ($6.80) 4♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $5.10, Hero raises to $18.44 (all-in), BU folds

Total pot: $17 (Rake: $0.85)
BB (Hero) wins $16.15

This hand was against a TAG reg (slightly nitty). Seemed a pretty standard check call on flop, amazing turn and I went for check raise instead of the check call - I was torn in game whether I should call or not but was concerned he would just check back 99 or TT at the end, and also that he wouldn't believe my line and call it off given I shouldn't have many 4s. I wonder if check call is better and hoping he bets river, what do you think?

If your read is he folds to 3 bets pre but called here and is slightly nitty then I think you should call turn and lead river if you know they will be checking pairs. The fun part of leading river is the "what the hell" factor we induce. The SPR is .76 on river so if we blocker bet we could get a spew or at least a crying call---river card dictates our action

 

[John A]

Thank you played it fine. NH.

 

[AdamasDate]

Hello all been ghost for a bit life and such a intresting spot will give my view

Pre flop

Pretty normal here

Flop
A low board Connected board check is mandatory even if we had a overpair here we would have to be careful he bets small dont say very much about his hand as of yet so call is fine

Turn

Brings in trips which is nice u crush all his over pairs now your gona pay off all fullhouses my guess cause your hand is too strong the full houses are a small part of his range i believe its either a hand with a connected 5 like 56 or 54 these hands have a good chance of bluffing on river if they wiff so jamming turn dont make sense overcards will bet river for the most part for value cause you would have taking a check call line so they think your weak so u can jam river against these