I think I played this well pretty well – but I still lost; what do you think?

ssbn743 · Jul 20, 2014

I’m on my second entry of a $210 live deep stack event with $30K to start and 30 minute levels. I’ve built my stack up to around $120K and we are in Level 13 with blinds at $1500/$3000/$500.

Right off the bat and admittedly, I screwed up and got myself into trouble when I didn’t need to. So, that said, here we go:

From UTG +2 I’m dealt

and open raise to $7500 (2.5x with 40BB). This is not a hand I normally play from this position, however, I hadn’t played a hand in over 30 minutes and felt it a good time to play, and hoped my recent tight image would compensate for the lack of cards – I was wrong.

The cutoff seat calls pre-flop with $28K back and the BB calls as well with $180K back (second biggest stack at the table, table lead was $220K).

Pot: $28,500

Flop:

The BB leads out for $12K. This guy wasn’t very good at all, he got a big stack by playing a very standard and transparent game and it was clear that he was on the come for a flush. Now, I could’ve been wrong, and there are lots of other hands in his range as well like sets and two pair combos, but everything felt right to put my opponent on a come-bet flush draw here; frankly, it wasn’t even that hard, as I said he was very transparent.

So, I immediately started thinking about a raise for protection and value if he should happen to call, but quickly had some issues. I didn’t want to give him the odds to chase if the cutoff seat moved all in; and I was pretty sure the CO was going to do exactly that from his body language. Normally, I would raise to around $30K, but if I did so and the CO shoved, quick guesstimation math would give the BB better than 6:1 (~98K:18K), which is close but should be a call for his flush draw.

So instead, I raised to $50K knowing I had the CO covered. If the cutoff shoved, this would make the pot odds more like 3:1 (~40K:130K), or 3.5:1, something like that for the BB. Now he could justify a light call with implied odds here (as if I’m putting another chip in the pot if a heart falls) but at least I’m not giving him the outright odds to chase.

The CO shoved with what turned out to be QQ and then the BB tanks for a while and calls – which is good, I guess, that he wants to call when he’s not getting odds – I love mistakes; if no heart falls, guess what the bet is?

Pot: $166,500

Turn:

I watched my opponents’ eyes start bouncing off the table like a basketball between his stack and the board, then with quivering hands, slide his stack out while shakily saying “all-in”.

Gee – what should I do here?

I fold while thinking “nice catch” and he flips

This really hurt considering the lengths I went to in order to make sure this didn’t happen and the fact that I lost around 50% of my stack at a bad time, but it happened anyway and all could have been avoided if I just didn’t play AJ early, I was beat by the QQ anyway – in short, I was &*^%ed, I just didn’t know it. Nonetheless, this was a typical low limit game with bad players, the guy with 10BB’s doesn’t shove QQ into an EP raise from a bigger stack and another yahoo won’t fold a King high flush draw against two other hands; sigh…

Anyway, aside from not playing AJ early, could I have done anything here? Would a 3-bet shove on the flop gotten the job done? I probably should have because I had such a large portion of my stack invested with the $50K flop 3-bet but I was concentrating on not giving him the odds to make his hand; you know, because clearly that mattered!

Salvete777 · Jul 20, 2014

You shouldn't raise in flop. Flush draw on table against your Jack pair.
I would just call in flop and then watch what comes on turn, if there wouldn't been another heart, then you could raise.

Martinez · Jul 20, 2014

Happens to us all at times. I like your raise, but there was no way of stopping a flush chaser with 2 cards yet to see.
Was in a final table today, 3 of us left with chip stacks of 90k in SB 129k BB (me) and button around 225k.
button was raising 3xbb every hand so looking down saw QQ
blinds were 3k-6k and 6oo antes.
I re raise to 66K button instant calls. flop comes 7-3-7. Im first to bet and shove all in, get an instant call and was shown 77.
I don't think I played it baly, just got a crappy flop, but that's poker.

cotta777 · Jul 20, 2014

I think for me, We've got the guy with queens little we can do there, I like a float on the flop but if the over pair most likely shoves as expected and the donkish guy with K5 decides to re-shove, it put's us in snap fold scenario

since most of the time we'll be looking at flipping with a flush draw best case scenario and losing to a set/2 pair, over pair worst case scenario.

Ideally we want the float and then with the turn card missing a flush I would then move in, or bet pot.

Shoving in that spot on the flop is an option it's a gamble but you've got serious Ammo if you do win in that spot.
In a tournament live I wouldn't wanna exit early in a marginal spot with a decent stack, so I'd be keen to see the turn and then evaluate pressure or fold.

Tgen · Jul 20, 2014

This is a very hard hand because you are midstacked to shortstacked , playing such hands optimally is typically the hardest thing in a mtt.

You cant really fold to donk bettor , you are clearly ahead of his range but i dont think a raise is optimal here , its unclear if QJ KJ will continue and you will fold all his semi/pure bluffs , therefore just call his bet.

When you face a raise from the co then you have two options , the first one is fold , multiway reraises are usually the nuts , the other one obviously is to call and induce more bluffing or thin value betting on turn.

It all depends what you believe about the co villain , do you think he is capable to have enough bluffs in his range? do you think he overplays middle hands? it all depends

I personally would choose to fold as a default , especially when BB calls the reraise , i wouldnt do the same though if the pot wasnt multiway.

ssbn743 · Jul 21, 2014

Tgen said:
This is a very hard hand because you are midstacked to shortstacked , playing such hands optimally is typically the hardest thing in a mtt.

You cant really fold to donk bettor , you are clearly ahead of his range but i dont think a raise is optimal here , its unclear if QJ KJ will continue and you will fold all his semi/pure bluffs , therefore just call his bet.

When you face a raise from the co then you have two options , the first one is fold , multiway reraises are usually the nuts , the other one obviously is to call and induce more bluffing or thin value betting on turn.

It all depends what you believe about the co villain , do you think he is capable to have enough bluffs in his range? do you think he overplays middle hands? it all depends

I personally would choose to fold as a default , especially when BB calls the reraise , i wouldnt do the same though if the pot wasnt multiway.

I realize I had 40BB’s, but I was also the 3rd biggest stack at the table, so from a relative standpoint, I was doing pretty well. Weak players don’t understand stack sizes or their meaning. I still can’t believe the 10BB stack didn’t shove QQ from LP into an EP raise; and it cost him his tournament.

One problem I have with what you said is that if I’m ahead and my opponents obvious draw range, the worst thing I can do is flat call or fold. The only case I can see justifying a call would be in the case of pot control, but I don’t think this is a good example of when pot control should be used – we already know we’re likely playing for the CO’s stack here; and top/top is something I’m willing to do that with – you have to figure if he had a top/top beating hand he would have raised pre-flop, except for set mines, which he doesn’t have a stack large enough to do anyway. Turns out I was wrong there, but…

I look at anything other than a flop raise as a give up slide, and if I’m giving up; why call? I should just fold outright. I probably should have anyway since the CO was so eager to get his money in, but I got a great flop. I think it’s either a raise or a fold on the flop; I don’t see any other options. Except not playing AJ early, that would’ve helped.

aznman08 · Jul 21, 2014

ssbn743 said:
The only case I can see justifying a call would be in the case of pot control, but I don’t think this is a good example of when pot control should be used – we already know we’re likely playing for the CO’s stack here;

My response to this is: Well why didn't you play for stacks on the flop then?
You have top-top with a backdoor redraw to the nut flush.

Then the 3rd heart came and didnt have enough heart to follow through with your plan and in return cost you 50% of your stack.

My opinion: You didn't weigh out what to do when different turn cards come and if vilian checks/bets into you.

ssbn743 said:
I look at anything other than a flop raise as a give up slide, and if I’m giving up; why call? I should just fold outright. I probably should have anyway since the CO was so eager to get his money in, but I got a great flop. I think it’s either a raise or a fold on the flop; I don’t see any other options.

How does flatting the raise become a slide when we have position on villian? We get to see what he does before choosing our action. Sounds like you were trying to play the hand out of position.

EDIT: We have 40bb to begin the hand and the 3rd biggest stack at the table, why jeopardize it against the 2 larger stacks on the table with a marginal hand at best. top-top isn't something you want to tangle with against large stacks.

ssbn743 · Jul 24, 2014

aznman08 said:
My response to this is: Well why didn't you play for stacks on the flop then?

You have top-top with a backdoor redraw to the nut flush.

Then the 3rd heart came and didnt have enough heart to follow through with your plan and in return cost you 50% of your stack.

My opinion: You didn't weigh out what to do when different turn cards come and if vilian checks/bets into you.

How does flatting the raise become a slide when we have position on villian? We get to see what he does before choosing our action. Sounds like you were trying to play the hand out of position.

EDIT: We have 40bb to begin the hand and the 3rd biggest stack at the table, why jeopardize it against the 2 larger stacks on the table with a marginal hand at best. top-top isn't something you want to tangle with against large stacks.

First – There was 1 larger stack, not 2.

Second – I believe I said I should have shoved the flop rather than 3-bet to $50K because it was such a large portion of my stack.

Third- Why in the name of all that is holy would I allow my come drawing opponent to get exactly what he wants by flatting the flop? It has nothing to do with position, in fact he being out of position is what made him bet on the come, to set the terms and price for his own draw. If I don’t raise him, I should just fold – flatting is not an option.

Fourth – I did weigh out what turns cards would do. Any non-heart and I shove, a heart and I fold – that’s what I did. Now, just because I had a backdoor nut-flush draw, let’s do the math:

Pot on my action after Turn- $211,500

I have to call my remaining $45K to hit; $45K/$210K which reduces to about 3/14 or 21%. We could also do $255K/$45 to get the ratio, or about 17:3 against. If my opponent has 2 hearts, (which I’m nearly certain he does) I have 7 outs or about 14% to improve; even if I count all 9 hearts I’m only good about 17%-18% here and there are no additional implied odds because I’m all-in. Folding to a turned heart still yields a 15BB stack and is the correct play at that point; which is also why I should have simply shoved the flop.

aznman08 · Jul 24, 2014

ssbn743 said:
First – There was 1 larger stack, not 2.

Second – I believe I said I should have shoved the flop rather than 3-bet to $50K because it was such a large portion of my stack.

Third- Why in the name of all that is holy would I allow my come drawing opponent to get exactly what he wants by flatting the flop? It has nothing to do with position, in fact he being out of position is what made him bet on the come, to set the terms and price for his own draw. If I don’t raise him, I should just fold – flatting is not an option.

1: As I read your op, you: $120k,
BB $180k remaining, started with $200k; another stack with $220k

2: That well everyone agrees with.

3: Flatting does another thing by keeping the pot small enough, such that we can get away from the hand with minimal damage with a marginal hand. Mind you in tournaments, we have to limit our losses while maximizing our gains as once we run out of chips; it becomes game over. BB is one of the few people, that can do this in one hand.

ssbn743 · Jul 25, 2014

aznman08 said:
1: As I read your op, you: $120k,

BB $180k remaining, started with $200k; another stack with $220k

2: That well everyone agrees with.

3: Flatting does another thing by keeping the pot small enough, such that we can get away from the hand with minimal damage with a marginal hand. Mind you in tournaments, we have to limit our losses while maximizing our gains as once we run out of chips; it becomes game over. BB is one of the few people, that can do this in one hand.

Yes there were two bigger stacks at the table but one of them folded and was not a factor in this hand.

Flatting the flop definitely is the safe play, no doubt about that, but you don’t win poker tournaments by playing it safe, especially when you allow a bigger stack to catch when you’re certain that you’re ahead and he is drawing.

Additionally, I may have had a marginal hand pre-flop, but once the flop comes out top/top, my hand is anything but marginal; without question top/top is +EV.

I agree that we have to manage risk and reward, that’s the name of the game, but I don’t see how allowing your larger stacked opponent to get exactly what he wants at the price he wants does that. That’s a very weak, passive, and terrible line; even if the turn comes a non-heart he’s just going to check and fold – if you are going to take that line; why are you even in the hand? In hindsight, I wish I wasn’t, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

AtiFCOD · Jul 25, 2014

ssbn743 said:
I’m on my second entry of a $210 live deep stack event with $30K to start and 30 minute levels. I’ve built my stack up to around $120K and we are in Level 13 with blinds at $1500/$3000/$500.

Right off the bat and admittedly, I screwed up and got myself into trouble when I didn’t need to. So, that said, here we go:

From UTG +2 I’m dealt and open raise to $7500 (2.5x with 40BB). This is not a hand I normally play from this position, however, I hadn’t played a hand in over 30 minutes and felt it a good time to play, and hoped my recent tight image would compensate for the lack of cards – I was wrong.

The cutoff seat calls pre-flop with $28K back and the BB calls as well with $180K back (second biggest stack at the table, table lead was $220K).

Pot: $28,500

Flop:

The BB leads out for $12K. This guy wasn’t very good at all, he got a big stack by playing a very standard and transparent game and it was clear that he was on the come for a flush. Now, I could’ve been wrong, and there are lots of other hands in his range as well like sets and two pair combos, but everything felt right to put my opponent on a come-bet flush draw here; frankly, it wasn’t even that hard, as I said he was very transparent.

So, I immediately started thinking about a raise for protection and value if he should happen to call, but quickly had some issues. I didn’t want to give him the odds to chase if the cutoff seat moved all in; and I was pretty sure the CO was going to do exactly that from his body language. Normally, I would raise to around $30K, but if I did so and the CO shoved, quick guesstimation math would give the BB better than 6:1 (~98K:18K), which is close but should be a call for his flush draw.

So instead, I raised to $50K knowing I had the CO covered. If the cutoff shoved, this would make the pot odds more like 3:1 (~40K:130K), or 3.5:1, something like that for the BB. Now he could justify a light call with implied odds here (as if I’m putting another chip in the pot if a heart falls) but at least I’m not giving him the outright odds to chase.

The CO shoved with what turned out to be QQ and then the BB tanks for a while and calls – which is good, I guess, that he wants to call when he’s not getting odds – I love mistakes; if no heart falls, guess what the bet is?

Pot: $166,500

Turn:

I watched my opponents’ eyes start bouncing off the table like a basketball between his stack and the board, then with quivering hands, slide his stack out while shakily saying “all-in”.

Gee – what should I do here?

I fold while thinking “nice catch” and he flips

This really hurt considering the lengths I went to in order to make sure this didn’t happen and the fact that I lost around 50% of my stack at a bad time, but it happened anyway and all could have been avoided if I just didn’t play AJ early, I was beat by the QQ anyway – in short, I was &*^%ed, I just didn’t know it. Nonetheless, this was a typical low limit game with bad players, the guy with 10BB’s doesn’t shove QQ into an EP raise from a bigger stack and another yahoo won’t fold a King high flush draw against two other hands; sigh…

Anyway, aside from not playing AJ early, could I have done anything here? Would a 3-bet shove on the flop gotten the job done? I probably should have because I had such a large portion of my stack invested with the $50K flop 3-bet but I was concentrating on not giving him the odds to make his hand; you know, because clearly that mattered!

Playing with AJ early...that's not a bad move but if you fold that's ok too. It depends on the other players and stack sizes.

Short stack must have something big if he just calls with ~10BB if he is not a bad player. I think you could just call the raise on the flop and see what happens...and see the turn or fold after short stack shove (especially if BB calls that shove, but a call is ok if BB folds).

Jacki Burkhart · Aug 3, 2014

There's nothing wrong with opening with AJo in your described situation PROVIDED THAT you are capable of minimizing the damage if you are in a multiway pot and everybody seems to like their hands.

The way I see it, you have 2 clear options on this flop

1) pot control and try to get to the river as cheaply as possible.
2) jam on the flop to "protect" your hand

I think option 2 is OK in some circumstances but at this stage of the tourney you don't NEED this pot so jamming the flop is kind of optional. It's the high risk high variance high reward line. that's OK sometimes if that is your goal for this stage.

but wait...there's more!

part of the beauty of playing live is the ability to pick up a tell on a player who has position on you. You were fortunate enough to do just that and get a little bit of extra info that the CO is going to jam. if you REALLY had that tell at the time then this is the time to make a tough fold.

2 players very interested in the pot, you have TPTK. seems like gonna be playing for stacks.

no, you cannot put him on QQ, but why can't he have a set of 3s or a set of 6s? sometimes you're going to fold and be shown AJ or KJ and be sick with yourself but often enough you are going to be facing a flush draw (with overs...) vs better than top pair.

it's ok to sometimes fold the best hand when it's a marginal hand in a multiway pot and the pot is heating up. If you could never be pushed off the best hand, then you would be a chip bleeding calling station. (I realize he didn't have the best hand, I'm talking about those times the CO jams with AJ or KJ)

Jacki Burkhart · Aug 3, 2014

ssbn743 said:
One problem I have with what you said is that if I’m ahead and my opponents obvious draw range, the worst thing I can do is flat call or fold.

actually, I think the worst thing you can do is raise a pot committing amount with the possibility of ever folding.

ssbn743 said:
Third- Why in the name of all that is holy would I allow my come drawing opponent to get exactly what he wants by flatting the flop? It has nothing to do with position, in fact he being out of position is what made him bet on the come, to set the terms and price for his own draw. If I don’t raise him, I should just fold – flatting is not an option.

maybe flatting is not an option for YOU with your specific game plan and goals...but flatting is definitely a reasonable option. It is better than raising less than all in. It is probably better than folding if you don't have a read on the CO.

Out of 4 options:
fold
flat
raise
jam

I think flatting is 3rd best. with folding/jamming being the best 2 options. Which option is best or 2nd best is a matter of your goals and reads.

aznman08 said:
Flatting does another thing by keeping the pot small enough, such that we can get away from the hand with minimal damage with a marginal hand. Mind you in tournaments, we have to limit our losses while maximizing our gains as once we run out of chips; it becomes game over. BB is one of the few people, that can do this in one hand.

exactly. BINGO! the case for flatting is made quite eloquently.

ssbn743 said:
Flatting the flop definitely is the safe play, no doubt about that, but you don’t win poker tournaments by playing it safe, especially when you allow a bigger stack to catch when you’re certain that you’re ahead and he is drawing.

Additionally, I may have had a marginal hand pre-flop, but once the flop comes out top/top, my hand is anything but marginal; without question top/top is +EV.

No hand has intrinsic value until the pot develops. TPTK is at best marginal in a big pot, and almost always -EV in a large, multiway pot.

ssbn743 said:
I agree that we have to manage risk and reward, that’s the name of the game, but I don’t see how allowing your larger stacked opponent to get exactly what he wants at the price he wants does that. That’s a very weak, passive, and terrible line; even if the turn comes a non-heart he’s just going to check and fold – if you are going to take that line; why are you even in the hand? In hindsight, I wish I wasn’t, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

you seem to be more interested in the big stack "not getting what he wants" than making the best play for YOUR OWN stack and situation. Is it that big of a deal to let him draw to his flush in a small-ish pot (if you're pretty sure what he has) and then re-assess on the turn when you have most of the information?

...So he bets 12k hoping for 1 or 2 callers laying himself either 3:1 or 4:1 odds depending on if he gets 1 or 2 callers. But, he only gets to see 1 card before more money goes in (from you) so he's still not giving himself proper odds to catch his heart on the turn. Because you're not going to let him get to the river for just 12k, right? so don't sweat him "giving himself the price he wants" if he gets lucky, you get out cheap, if he misses then you turn up the heat on the turn and win more with less risk.

Sometimes our opponents make a good move that is hard for us to defend against and we have to choose the "least bad" option from a group of sub-optimal choices. That is poker. He put you to the test. Good for him, but don't make it personal about "him not getting his way".

ssbn743 · Aug 5, 2014

missjacki said:
There's nothing wrong with opening with AJo in your described situation PROVIDED THAT you are capable of minimizing the damage if you are in a multiway pot and everybody seems to like their hands.

The way I see it, you have 2 clear options on this flop

1) pot control and try to get to the river as cheaply as possible.
2) jam on the flop to "protect" your hand

I think option 2 is OK in some circumstances but at this stage of the tourney you don't NEED this pot so jamming the flop is kind of optional. It's the high risk high variance high reward line. that's OK sometimes if that is your goal for this stage.

but wait...there's more!

part of the beauty of playing live is the ability to pick up a tell on a player who has position on you. You were fortunate enough to do just that and get a little bit of extra info that the CO is going to jam. if you REALLY had that tell at the time then this is the time to make a tough fold.

2 players very interested in the pot, you have TPTK. seems like gonna be playing for stacks.

no, you cannot put him on QQ, but why can't he have a set of 3s or a set of 6s? sometimes you're going to fold and be shown AJ or KJ and be sick with yourself but often enough you are going to be facing a flush draw (with overs...) vs better than top pair.

it's ok to sometimes fold the best hand when it's a marginal hand in a multiway pot and the pot is heating up. If you could never be pushed off the best hand, then you would be a chip bleeding calling station. (I realize he didn't have the best hand, I'm talking about those times the CO jams with AJ or KJ)

I guess the 10-12BB stack is what makes this hand complicated. If I knew that he had me beat, obviously I would fold, but his range has lots of hands that I do beat, he could be on a heart draw as well, and he could have KJ very easily. Yes he could have a set of 3’s as well but he doesn’t have enough chips to get me to fold. I already know, I’m playing top/top for 10BB’s – if he made a set here, he gets paid.

So my sole objective became getting the big stack drawing hand to fold. I’m not interested in pot control because I know the size of the pot is going to balloon anyway. A shove probably would have gotten the job done, but really, a $50K 3-bet should have done the same thing, he was not getting the right price to chase like he thought he was.

I do wish I had simply shoved the flop, but I just don’t see a flat call on the flop here. I already know I’m playing for at least $28K post-flop, so pot control is meaningless. To me, and in hindsight, it’s either shove or fold!

spiderman637 · Aug 8, 2014

I enjoyed the way in which u described ur thinking pattern of the hand.....
Firstly I think u should have made a 4xBB bet preflop...that would have clearly avoided u of all the trouble with the big stack villian...very unlikely that he would have called ur preflop bet of 4xbb...
Post flop and post turn play was good as to my opinion....

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I think I played this well pretty well – but I still lost; what do you think?

ssbn743

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Salvete777

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Martinez

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Tgen

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AtiFCOD

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Jacki Burkhart

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