I just ran into a situation, that time and time again makes me scratch my head. It's early in the tournament (blinds 25/50, starting stack 4k-5k), so there are plenty of more times to make a move. I call preflop with a small pocket pair and hit a set on the flop. Only thing is that their are 2 diamonds on the flop for a possible flush draw. I am first to act and check to hope to check raise somebody. One person bets 125, and there is another caller. I raise to 625 total when action comes back to me and they both fold.

My dilemma is that I like to size my bets to get the draws out of there. I was hoping that somebody with top pair top kicker would call my raise. Would it be possibly a good idea to try and milk the set for more value (this is always what I worry about)? Did I play my set too aggressively?
The things I had issue with was that their were 3 other people in the pot, and a flush draw on the board, I did not want to get sucked out on.

Don't check-raise but just donkbet straightforward (up to as much as you think will get called by at least one opponent, if in doubt bet more), if it's checked around you achieved nothing.

~2/3 pot

We don't want to push anyone off the draw but we want them to stay and pay (there will be other non-fd combos that will call you down anyway, too).

If you get reraised fistpump shove and hope for callers.

Checkraising telephraphs your set btw.

why do you want to get draws out?

Originally Posted by baudib1

why do you want to get draws out?

Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

Originally Posted by Tim3254

Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

So you want to push him out of the hand?
Why?
Just let him pay you off, and then just quitely fold if he gets lucky.
Or take all his chips when he gets there and you get a boat or quads.

I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


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You don't bet to win the hand, you bet because you have a set and you want worse hands to call. Winning or losing the hand is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by grafkarow

Don't check-raise but just donkbet straightforward (up to as much as you think will get called by at least one opponent, if in doubt bet more), if it's checked around you achieved nothing.

~2/3 pot

We don't want to push anyone off the draw but we want them to stay and pay (there will be other non-fd combos that will call you down anyway, too).

If you get reraised fistpump shove and hope for callers.

Checkraising telephraphs your set btw.

most people arent going to fold a flush draw on the flop if there calling 2/3rd pot, otherwise they wouldnt play flush draw types of hands seeing as that is usually standard bet size. donk bet sounds like a great way to get paid, most of the time u get raised when donkbetting a flop so i would say gowith that, good advice grafkarow, i rarely donk bet myself. If i do im probably on top of my game knowing its a valueable decision that will more likely get me paid then checking oop.

Originally Posted by Tim3254

Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

Yes you want him to stay in the hand. with bad odds. If he pays more than he should he loses $ev and who do you think gains what he loses? If you jsut try and take pots down the second we hit a set and there are 2 suited cards then we're taking away the implied odds that we have that justify playing PP in multiway pots.

Get flopzilla and play with ranges and board textures. Even if villain plays only suited cards and there is a possible flush draw, they'll have that flush draw 20% of the time. Same scenario, but three flush on the flop, there is a 15% chance they have a flush. Therefore i'm not scared of flushes any more, there range is so much wider than that.

Originally Posted by Tim3254

I just ran into a situation, that time and time again makes me scratch my head. It's early in the tournament (blinds 25/50, starting stack 4k-5k), so there are plenty of more times to make a move. I call preflop with a small pocket pair and hit a set on the flop. Only thing is that their are 2 diamonds on the flop for a possible flush draw. I am first to act and check to hope to check raise somebody. One person bets 125, and there is another caller. I raise to 625 total when action comes back to me and they both fold.

My dilemma is that I like to size my bets to get the draws out of there. I was hoping that somebody with top pair top kicker would call my raise. Would it be possibly a good idea to try and milk the set for more value (this is always what I worry about)? Did I play my set too aggressively?
The things I had issue with was that their were 3 other people in the pot, and a flush draw on the board, I did not want to get sucked out on.

I think leading out the flop with two diamonds on board is better than check raising.

I also don't like slow playing a set unless I'm agaisnt areally aggro player and board is very dry.

Originally Posted by jbbb

Get flopzilla and play with ranges and board textures. Even if villain plays only suited cards and there is a possible flush draw, they'll have that flush draw 20% of the time. Same scenario, but three flush on the flop, there is a 15% chance they have a flush. Therefore i'm not scared of flushes any more, there range is so much wider than that.

So does flopzilla do other things that pokerstove doesn't do? If so, this is exactly what I need to boost my confidence Thanks for the advice!

A flopped set is a 3:1 favorite over a flopped flush draw. If he misses the turn and you don't boat up, you're then a 6.5:1 favorite. If I think I can induce an aggro player to get it in with those odds on either street, I'm fistpumping.

Originally Posted by Tim3254

So does flopzilla do other things that pokerstove doesn't do? If so, this is exactly what I need to boost my confidence Thanks for the advice!

Pokerstove only calculates equity. It does it well, but that's all it does, and it's an abandoned tool that will likely never be updated. Other tools like Flopzilla, Combonator, and Slice do what PokerStove does and then some, such as combo analysis and how often ranges hit given boards.

what if you dont really know that they got the flush and it came on the turn do you check and see if they bet and call them down or just fold and risk gettin bluffed?

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


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So basically try to win the minimum? Push? What like 5x pot? (cuz OP is referring to a spot where they're 100bb's deep in early levels).

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

So basically try to win the minimum? Push?

yep


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i'd always push in this situation, better to win a small pot than to lose a big one!

You push 100BB deep when you hit a set of a FD board? If we do that then we should fold pre-flop as we're completely getting rid of the odds that justify playing PP's pre.

I'm just saying what I would do, not saying its right! Any time I raise with a set on the flop a flush draw always seems to call and when the turn hits I'm usually not sure how to play it if the third flush card hits. I usually raise about a 3/4 pot bet but if they call or raise I'm never sure how to play it and I usually end up losing a load of chips usually by trying to get him out of the hand when he has hit his flush. That's why I usually play it safe and raise all in post-flop if someone else has raised. Since I usually play low stakes or freerolls, players with flush draws are a lot more likely to call I've noticed, so most of the time you should win, and when you don't its just bad luck really.

That's in a different situation though to what the original poster stated, I really should have fully read the post! With the blinds that small, 3-4x what the other person raised is definitely a sufficient bet for a set.

I'm still trying to learn though so any advice on what I'm doing wrong would be great! Sorry for hijacking the thread btw.

Post your HHs in analysis section on hands like that if you're struggling with what you should be doing, obviously each situation is different like in this one I'd probably donk bet the flop, whereas some others are fine to check-raise.

Originally Posted by Tim3254

Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

You should want them calling their flush draws when your giving them incorrect odds.

Of course you want flush draws to stay forever that's how you win money. If a diamond does hit and you're 100% sure they have it, then fold unless you're commited it's them who made the incorrect play by calling down in the first place.

Originally Posted by olliejjc16

i'd always push in this situation, better to win a small pot than to lose a big one!

So basically lose value for your monster hands everytime?

Why not just shove every pair PF and A,K if you don't want to play an easy monster like a set post flop.

It's terrible to win a small pot by pushing someone of a draw, the worse play in the and you're basically costing yourself money doing this and what on earth do you want getting paid for if not a set?

better yet with donk betting....donkbet pot with the set, there is a decent chance somebody will raise with or without a flush draw, in which case you just got some serious value. And even if your up against a flush on the turn, your not in the wordst condition. you still have 10 outs. But i mean if your going to fold a flush draw on a flop then suited cards would be irrelevent. I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


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sounds like youve given up on poker then. not having the courage to value bet.

Lets put it simple. A win is a win. You played the hand perfect.
You could have slow played the hand but if the turn was the flush card then what? Then hope you pair the board on the river after you commit more chips.If you do hit a pair on the river then you could sweep a decent pot.
But the more cards you let people see the worst off you are. I dont know what your starting hand was, you said you had a small pair. What if you slow played the hand and some one hits a set on the turn thats bigger than yours, not good. See what I mean, you played the hand perfect. Like I said a win is a win. So if you start to get greedy it can bite you back.
I always make people pay to see another card. Dont down yourself for your play, you won chips.

You should bet bigger not to drive people but to make sure that when they hit there flush the times you win will still be much more than when you lose. And you may not be driving out flush draws anyway. Sometimes you just can't get paid off. I always fast play sets with a flush draw out there. Betting and raising.

Originally Posted by dgking

better yet with donk betting....donkbet pot with the set, there is a decent chance somebody will raise with or without a flush draw, in which case you just got some serious value. And even if your up against a flush on the turn, your not in the wordst condition. you still have 10 outs.

^^^so far so good ^^

But i mean if your going to fold a flush draw on a flop then suited cards would be irrelevent.

^^no^^

I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer

^^^Now the red part is rediculous^^

So you're going to pay off my 2/3 pot bet with a flush draw?

Do you really think you'll have implied odds and will get paid off when the flush hits ? I seriously doubt that.

If it doesn't hit on turn what then ? Call the 2/3 pot bet again ?

Originally Posted by grafkarow

So you're going to pay off my 2/3 pot bet with a flush draw?

Do you really think you'll have implied odds and will get paid off when the flush hits ? I seriously doubt that.

If it doesn't hit on turn what then ? Call the 2/3 pot bet again ?

I dont understand your argument at all, its pretty standard. Who would ever fold to a 2/3rd pot bet on a flop with a flush draw.
Say the pot is 100 and your facing a 66 chip bet so 66/166 is your pot odds, so thats an easy call on the flop. And yes i do think that tthe implied odds will pay off, not everytime but in the long run considering i play 5nl and the players are spewy as hell.
If it doesnt hit on the turn then fold most cases unless of sourse the pot is still pretty small and you know your up against a fish who your sure will stack off if the river hits a flush or at least call your valuebet.
These types of draws have definately made up for themselves for when they have hit for me over probably 100000+ hands. I dont know the exact amount as i just started using a hud and the server where i have the most volume only tells me how many raked hands i have played and doesnt support a hud but 15k+raked since october 10.
With this being said i wouldnt suggest that you play every opponent like this. You just have to know which ones serve you the right implied odds. I explain this to my brother who is a 1000nl grinder and has been playing professionally for 8 years and he says well ya if you feel your getting the right implied odds then go with it. Ive told him my strategy and he hasnt told me to do otherwise.
If you think im wrong well sorry to hear that but ive proven to myself that it works.

But i mean if your going to fold a flush draw on a flop then suited cards would be irrelevent.

^^no^^
Explain?Tell me how they are relevant if your not going to gamble when your on the draw on a flop
I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer

^^^Now the red part is rediculous^^
How? Suited cards are good for basically implied odds.You shouldnt ever be in the hand even if your going to fold the flop. Also to call a 2/3rd pot bet you should 39% equity+, usually with a flush draw you have redraws and therefore you usually have more then 39% on the flop in general. Also the implied odds definately make up for the missing 3% if you have no redraws other then flush outs. On top of that if you put your opponent on a set then you know its going to be very hard for them to fold so that increases your implied odds great deal. Please explain how anything im saying here is wrong. If anything is ridiculous about what i said its that im slightly suggesting the thread starter gamble with a 10 outer.

If the flush hits you don't have implied odds unless facing smaller flush.

This is why i say donkbet your set. This guy had absolutely no read what so ever, probably thoiught i had complete air as i was donkbetting. Also he sucks, raising with a2o lmao. I was also going to fold due to my shortstack preflop but then he got 1 more caller so easy call now.
Seat 1: dking111 (€1.29 in chips)
Seat 2: Serioussex (€1.95 in chips)
Seat 3: TopFish (€3.80 in chips)
Seat 4: fagi64 (€2.61 in chips)
Seat 5: cavallo90 (€4.17 in chips)
cavallo90: posts small blind €0.02
dking111: posts big blind €0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dking111 [3s 3c]
Dealt to Serioussex [** **]
Dealt to TopFish [** **]
Dealt to fagi64 [** **]
Dealt to cavallo90 [** **]
Serioussex: raises €0.07 to €0.12
TopFish: folds
fagi64: calls €0.12
cavallo90: folds
dking111: calls €0.07
*** FLOP *** [Ah 3h 6s]
dking111: bets €0.20
Serioussex: calls €0.20
fagi64: folds
*** TURN *** [Ah 3h 6s] 9♦
dking111: bets €0.35
Serioussex: bets €1.63 and is all-in
dking111: raises €0.62 to €0.97 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (€0.66) returned to Serioussex
Serioussex: shows [Ad 2h]
dking111: shows [3s 3c]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 3h 6s 9d] J♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dking111 wins €2.56 with three of a kind, threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot €2.72 | Rake €0.16
Board [Ah 3h 6s 9d Jh]

Well you have a problem in your statements switching between the set and flush hands which makes it a little difficult to keep up with your train of thought.
Set hand, deff skew pot odds for flush draw, to my understanding if he is going to call the flop with a flush draw then you have implied odds on the turn if it's dead. I'm in Jusumguy's corner on this though I want to take this small pot down early even though I'm a 4-1 favorite.

If I'm the 4 card flush draw I don't have implied odds against the set because it's obvious what I have when I bet or raise the turn when my flush hits.
The set: If you had set and 3rd suited card falls on turn and face a massive bet or raise would you still push the set early in a tournement? Even facing the smooth call you are now 1-4 drawing that FH or quads. Only an idiot would check the made flush.

Originally Posted by PotluckXXI

If the flush hits you don't have implied odds unless facing smaller flush.

I agree that your implied odds are even greater, but against a set or even tptk or even tpwk in microstakes you still have quite good implied odds for sure, people just stack off easier at micros, or at least call off a good portion with some of the above types of hands. About 1/4 of my bankroll over the past 5 months has been made with made draws against fish. I get burned horribly somedays with them but the times i dont easily more then make up for it.

I am interested in your views on this I would just ask that you state whether you are talking about the set hand or the flush draw hand

Originally Posted by PotluckXXI

Well you have a problem in your statements switching between the set and flush hands which makes it a little difficult to keep up with your train of thought.
Set hand, deff skew pot odds for flush draw, to my understanding if he is going to call the flop with a flush draw then you have implied odds on the turn if it's dead. I'm in Jusumguy's corner on this though I want to take this small pot down early even though I'm a 4-1 favorite.

If I'm the 4 card flush draw I don't have implied odds against the set because it's obvious what I have when I bet or raise the turn when my flush hits.
The set: If you had set and 3rd suited card falls on turn and face a massive bet or raise would you still push the set early in a tournement? Even facing the smooth call you are now 1-4 drawing that FH or quads. Only an idiot would check the made flush.

sorry if my communication sucks(i get that alot so bare with me). No i wouldnt think an idiot would check a flush, i do check a flush on the turn sometimes and of course there comes a risk but if the board doesnt pair on river then it makes it easier to stack someone because it disguises your hand enough and whether or not you agree i know so because ive done so on so many occasions.
Yes i agree that its obvious of what you have on the turn when you bet/raise, thats why i would check against some opponents but against the idiot opponents who dont have enough discipline to fold then nothings obvious to them and you can get your whole stack in against there set or tptk, i gurantee a fish will call with those. Thats why i say dont play suited connectors or suited aces as much against some opponents. but there great when you feel you have the right implied odds.