MTT: how often do you have to cash to be profitable?

In your individual past experience, roughly how often do you have to cash to be profitable in multi-table tournaments?

Running basic estimates myself... It seems like, if you go out soon after cashing, and the money on the bubble pays 2.5x's your buy in (typical numbers from what I've seen), you have to cash roughly 40% of the time you play just to break even. Is it realistic to think you can cash that often? Given that typical tournaments pay the top 10% it seems like the odds are not in your favor.

Of course, there will be times when you go deep into the tournament. My other questions is, in your experience, how often does this occur? How do you figure that into deciding whether or not to persue tournament play (ie: I need to make the final table in 1/15 tournaments to make it worth my time, etc)? What is your personal reasoning and break even point?

Anyway, just wanted to get the forum's thoughts and comments. Thanks.

To be profitable at MTT's your goal would really have to be final tabling -not just cashing. And once you make that your goal you will find yourself cashing a lot less often. You have to have a big cash at least periodically to sustain.

It is not easy.

i figure it this way, if i play Ten $10. games, i have to cash once for at least $100. just to be even, anything above that is profit,, if you play 10 $50. games you have to cash at least once for $500. to break even, anything over that is profit, them are just examples, thats the way we figured it out 40 years ago, im sure there are newer ways to figure it out, im from the Old School, if you make a Penny, you made a profit,,buck
even that way, like daks said, its not easy,its a long battle,

dont forget to factor in rake, either Buck.

Pretty sure there's no rake in MTT's, mate.

Absolutely positive I pay rake in every MTT I play in lol.

You pay a tourney fee every tourney, there's your rake

Pretty sure i pay rake (entree fee) in every MTT ive ever played in, mate.

Once. Cash in the 1st MTT you play and never play again. Easy game.

You're estimates are off by quite a bit. In micro buyin levels, you'll typically see players cashing (I.T.M., 'in the money') at a higher frequency than in the larger buyin MTTs (I believe from many going by the theory... play to get ITM... then try to move up the money ladder... quite often we're then in bad shape and unless we get lucky once the bubble pops we usually don't run that deep in it).
Another note here... usually the payout for just making it ITM (just making it past when the bubble pops) is only around 1.5x your buyin (or even less). Try looking thru the lobbys of tournaments that have been completed and you'll see this to be the case.

The best online MTT players generally finish I.T.M. at a rate of 11-12% (this seems to be the average amongst the top guys who play online tournaments, with avg. buyin $100+... same goes for the med.-stakes buyin MTT players ($26-$75).. avg. ITM is ~11-12%). Players with higher I.T.M. usually don't have a higher ROI% (<< return on investment). ROI is the number you should actually be more concerned with.

So... what's a decent ROI%? It 'depends', lol. It depends on what your primary motivation for playing MTTs is, what buyins you're playing, etc. (ie. if you're playing for the highest winrate/hr. then you'd obviously need a decent ROI% if playing the micro levels, because there will be many times that you'll play for 4hrs. in a tournament and not make much more than your buyin in return).
Some good (high buyin) MTT players only have an ROI of +25% but at the same time they might play a very high volume of them. Others are +150%.

As mentioned above, you really want to shoot for the final table when playing MTTs. At first you might just want to play to get in the money which is fine but without a decent cash along they way it'll be difficult to maintain a bankroll, nevermind increasing it.
MTTs are a tough go... until you get a decent cash that is. This is why most MTT players suggest not playing an MTT that is more than 2% of your bankroll (many say only 1%).

I think if you just focus on improving your game along the way, gaining more experience all the time, play with good bankroll management, etc., the bankroll will take care of itself (in other words.... you don't need to calculate that you'd need to be cashing 40% of the time).

Sidenote.... for SNG play (single table SNG's that is)... 40% ITM is about what you'd need to be shooting for to be playign profitably. Anything below 35% ITM and I'm pretty sure you'd be running with a -ROI% (unless you had a disproportionately large number of 1st place finishes).

GL on the tables!!

If you have an edge over the other players... the odds will be in your favour (over the longrun).

He was talking about "factoring in" the rake in the calculations. If he meant tournament fee, he would've said tournament fee. When you play a tourney, you know what you're paying from the start. There's nothing to "factor in" (unless you're a bit dense - in which case you probably shouldn't be playing at all.) If you pay 10 bucks and win 100, you've won 90. Pretty simple. But maybe there's actually rake on every hand in some tournaments these days or something. I haven't played much for the last 6 months. Who knows...

Nah he meant rake and rake = tournament fee.

My bad. Sorry Ms. Knowwhatotherpeoplemeant. Now I remember why I haven't been here much anymore...

Seems you were the only one who didn't know what he meant, even though you claim to yourself "He was talking about "factoring in" the rake in the calculations. If he meant tournament fee, he would've said tournament fee."

Your interpretation assumes ace is completely ignorant to how tournaments function. Somehow I think referring to entry fee as rake (the houses cut) is more likely.

If you're too stubborn to interact with other people, then by all means don't come back at all.

Well, maybe most people do need to factor in these things. It's second nature to me. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

Well you failed miserably.

No need to get so upset because you misunderstood something.

a lot of it depends on your style. Some are aggressive and either are big winners or losers. Others are conservative and just try to make cash. Be aware of what you are as it affects how often you must cash

I've frequently read the proposition that it is better to "play to win" the tournament rather than to "play to cash." In my opinion this is not a very useful simplification. You have to make it ITM before you can win the tourney. To win tournaments you have to be willing to take chances at some point and I think the difference in philosophy is when and to what degree do you start taking chances. Everyone has witnessed the maniac who builds a big stack early and is out of the tourney long before the money and most have probably seen a short stack catch a hot run of cards at the right time and win a tournament. With experience you'll learn your own style of patience and risk taking.

ok i ll clear this up

i actually meant tourney fee as it happens. i mainly play cash games so i used the term rake(mistakenly perhaps).

i suppose what i was trying to get at was that you're ROI must take account of the tourney fee(aka rake to me) before you determine profitability.

soz bout confusion

Thanks for the reply Poker Orfice. Really good things to think about. Could you take it a step further and actively select tournaments with a greater potential to cash and/or they have individual sites promotions; bounties, gaurentees, etc. which could potentially increase your own overall ROI?

How do you select the tournaments that you play in? ROI perspective? win-rate/hr perspective? And why?

If you are learning to play the game, all the winrate stuff is secondary to improving your game. If your goal is to make immediate profits, your bottom line is $/hr.

In terms of game selection, bankroll management, effective buy in compared to your actual buy in (overlays, money added, etc), and your edge against the field are the factors to be considered. Note that tournaments generally have the highest ROI potential but that comes at the cost of variance and a lot of time invested. Bounties reduce variance because the final prize distribution isn't as skewed as normal tournaments.

As has been stated, the money to be made is at the top couple of spots in large MTTs and your goal from the outset should be to make a few large cashes as opposed to lots of small ones. This results in larger variance but it is widely accepted as the optimal way to maximize ROI.

You only need to cash once. It just has to be a big one.

I think this about sums it up.After playing you will decide when to start taking these chances to win the tournament and when folding is also key to potentially winning.Many times after the bubbled has popped and I';m sitting with a relatively small stack say 9k with blinds at 1200 and pick up a PP such as 99 but see an allin from early position called by another early position player and fold this because I am almost surely beat and would need to hit a 9.Folding is also a big key to winning sometimes people forget this.Needless to say I pick up something like AK/AQ a few hands later and double up where as if i called with my 99 i would have had a chance to triple up but ultimately lost and folding was the right play.Since i doubled up a few hands later.

Ace Generally the lowest payouts in most Mtts will cover the tourney fee.
Hence your ROI will be low if you to continue just to make the money.
You do need to final table at lower levels to improve ROI

i would guess you need to cash about 7-10% of the time to make a profit. but your goal should be to win and not to cash(pending on the structure of coarse).

According to OPR most pros cash 15-20% of the time

Not sure how ya figure this?? Does it have a filter for stats. saying 'most pros'?
If you filters are set for strictly MTT's, I don't think you'll find many (if any) of the top online MTT players cashing at 20% ITM (i've run many of them and have found it rare to see any of the top guys cashing higher than 12% ITM (also if they've played some volume)).

Who are you considering as being 'most pros'?
You'll find many of the high buyin online MTT players playing in Fulltilt's $1K Monday.... I've never seen any of them cashing anywhere close to ITM 20% (I could list dozens who are making the highest MTT profits online... scrolling pretty much the entire lobby of the $1K you'll find many of them in there (ie. Believer82, Doc Sands, da_professional, NEONPILS, Julian Verse, TitanTom, USCPhildo, bballer88.... the list goes on,.. many of them with NetProfit in excess of 1/2 million on Fulltilt)

the truth is that you always want to win, and all we play for real money if we did not win does not look like a waste of time if not money, and that if it hurts, if you want to pay your game would be that at least gain a little more than you for that tournament pagasta .......... good day and good life.

I'm on a mini heater for the last 120 days at Full Tilt micro MTTS averaging 23% overall ITM and 24% ITM in NLHE.

Overall 17% ROI and 64% ROI in NLHE and a small $98.00 profit

I got to quit playing the mixed tourney games and stick to NLHE

I agree with alot of the other posters. I think ROI is the best stat because the higher the ROI the more money you made when you did cash. From the start of the tourney you always play to win. Sometimes it's your day and sometimes not. The only time it's correct to play to money is when you are short-stacked and close to the bubble. Then cashing is top priority. Other than that PLAY TO WIN!!! You do that and you'll make money.