Unfair PS tournament rule

#1 10th February 2009, 1:43 AM

Two of us were eliminated in the same hand in a Sit and Go. My set beat her pair. However she went out in 4th place (ITM) and I was 5th (Bubbled). We were beat by a straight.

She had 1600 in chips while I only had 1500. That's why she finished better. In my opinion this is not a good rule. I had the second-best hand. Heads-up I would have beat her.

I'm sure y'all have experience with this and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

#2 10th February 2009, 1:48 AM

This has been absolutely standard for forever, AFAIK.

#3 10th February 2009, 1:48 AM

so if your opponent had 1600 chips and you had 10 chips would you still be thinking that you should have got 4th?

it's not an 'unfair PS rule' it's a 'completely standard tournament rule'.

#4 10th February 2009, 1:53 AM

I don't think this is only a PokerStars rule...this is how payouts are made everywhere.

#5 10th February 2009, 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexGuy

Two of us were eliminated in the same hand in a Sit and Go. My set beat her pair. However she went out in 4th place (ITM) and I was 5th (Bubbled). We were beat by a straight.

She had 1600 in chips while I only had 1500. That's why she finished better. In my opinion this is not a good rule. I had the second-best hand. Heads-up I would have beat her.

I'm sure y'all have experience with this and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

There's no such thing as 2nd place in a hand. You either have the best hand or a losing hand (this goes for each pot, so if there are side pots obviously multiple winning hands).

In this example there were 2 pots. One pot was between the 3 of you and one pot was between the other 2. The side pot is decided first, and you lose it. You are now eliminated. Then the player with the pair loses that hand and the rest of her chips to the straight. That means she's eliminated. That's the justification behind it and it's a standard rule in all tourneys, not just Pokerstars tourneys.

#6 10th February 2009, 2:31 AM

Well, maybe is not standard for all sites, because 2 week ago in a 3 way all in happen this to me in fulltilt, was MTT, i have more chips and best hand than the other that also get kick out and i end in a place down, the other player ended in 8 and i ended in 9.

So, maybe each site take his own policy.

#7 10th February 2009, 2:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Logan/

Well, maybe is not standard for all sites, because 2 week ago in a 3 way all in happen this to me in fulltilt, was MTT, i have more chips and best hand than the other that also get kick out and i end in a place down, the other player ended in 9 and i ended in 10.

So, maybe each site take his own policy.

Post the Hand history please ?

Yep totally standard tourney rule, everywhere.

#8 10th February 2009, 3:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

There's no such thing as 2nd place in a hand. You either have the best hand or a losing hand (this goes for each pot, so if there are side pots obviously multiple winning hands).

In this example there were 2 pots. One pot was between the 3 of you and one pot was between the other 2. The side pot is decided first, and you lose it. You are now eliminated. Then the player with the pair loses that hand and the rest of her chips to the straight. That means she's eliminated. That's the justification behind it and it's a standard rule in all tourneys, not just Pokerstars tourneys.

I appreciate the explanation.

#9 10th February 2009, 3:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Logan/

Well, maybe is not standard for all sites, because 2 week ago in a 3 way all in happen this to me in fulltilt, was MTT, i have more chips and best hand than the other that also get kick out and i end in a place down, the other player ended in 8 and i ended in 9.

So, maybe each site take his own policy.

Have not seen this on any site, including the 2 years I've played on Full Tilt. A HH would help, but stack sizes are always the determining factor in order of finishes.

#10 10th February 2009, 3:43 AM

Lol thats how all tourneys are played

#11 11th February 2009, 6:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /Logan/

Well, maybe is not standard for all sites, because 2 week ago in a 3 way all in happen this to me in fulltilt, was MTT, i have more chips and best hand than the other that also get kick out and i end in a place down, the other player ended in 8 and i ended in 9.

So, maybe each site take his own policy.

I'm not buying this for a moment, you must have misread the hands. Post a hands history of this hand and we'll be happy to help you sort out the details of why things went down the way they did.

To quote Zach because he is perfectly correct: "There's no such thing as 2nd place in a hand. You either have the best hand or a losing hand (this goes for each pot, so if there are side pots obviously multiple winning hands).

In this example there were 2 pots. One pot was between the 3 of you and one pot was between the other 2. The side pot is decided first, and you lose it. You are now eliminated. Then the player with the pair loses that hand and the rest of her chips to the straight. That means she's eliminated. That's the justification behind it and it's a standard rule in all tourneys, not just Pokerstars tourneys."

#12 11th February 2009, 1:16 PM

That is a rule in every poker tournament ever played or will ever be played anywhere in the world..... She had more chips, so she was one place higher than you, thefore she got knocked out "after" you.

#13 11th February 2009, 3:22 PM

This has always confused me a bit. Can anyone break it down please? The hand winner had over 1600 chips to start with, or else the woman who went out 8th would still have some chips left, right? So who is the side pot between (it's betw the OP and the winner, right?) and for how much? Or are all 3 in the side pot, but she still has 100 chips left, which she THEN goes on to lose to the straight, thus going out after the OP? In other words, the side pot is 1500 each, the lowest stack's entirety? No, that makes no sense. I'm just not seeing the need for the side pot if the hand winner had you both covered.

#14 11th February 2009, 4:28 PM

With 3 players AI, unless 2+ players have equal chips, there will always be 2 pots. 1st pot has the maximum chips that the low stack may win and is contested between the low stack, middle stack and high stack. The 2nd pot is the additional chips that the middle stack may win and is contested between the middle stack and the high stack.

#15 11th February 2009, 4:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jillychemung

With 3 players AI, unless 2+ players have equal chips, there will always be 2 pots. 1st pot has the chips that the low stack may win and is contested between the low stack, middle stack and high stack. The 2nd pot is the chips that the middle stack may win and is contested between the middle stack and the high stack.

Thanks Jilly. But still not fully understanding. Are you saying that the 2nd pot is the side pot? If so, the woman finishing 8th would have to be either the middle or high stack. If the OP is the high stack, he'd get her chips first, and would not be out at all. If the winner with the straight was the high stack, she'd be out first. Now... if the 1st pot you refer to is actually the side pot, then the guy with the straight was the chip leader of the 3. In which case, I'd see no reason for a side pot. Bottom line, I'd need to know which of the 2 was the side pot, and how many chips the hand winner had to fully grasp all this.

#16 11th February 2009, 4:57 PM

Well the side pot is the one between MS & HS but for the purposes of finishing order it doesn't matter as both pots complete simultaneously and LS & MS both exit the tournament at the same time. Since they both exit at the same time one goes back to the start of the hand before ante's & blinds to determine who finishes higher.

#17 11th February 2009, 5:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

Thanks Jilly. But still not fully understanding. Are you saying that the 2nd pot is the side pot? If so, the woman finishing 8th would have to be either the middle or high stack. If the OP is the high stack, he'd get her chips first, and would not be out at all. If the winner with the straight was the high stack, she'd be out first. Now... if the 1st pot you refer to is actually the side pot, then the guy with the straight was the chip leader of the 3. In which case, I'd see no reason for a side pot. Bottom line, I'd need to know which of the 2 was the side pot, and how many chips the hand winner had to fully grasp all this.

Main pot: all 3

Side pot: bigger 2 stacks

Let's use an example:

player A: 2000 chips
Player B: 1000 chips
Player C: 100 chips

they get all-in preflop and players C and B are all-in

Main pot: 300 chips (100 from each)

Side pot: 1800 chips (900 from each of A and B)

First the main pot is resolved. Player A wins that pot, player B loses 100 chips, as does player C. Player C now has no more chips left and loses.

Now the side pot is resolved. Player A wins that pot, player B loses all 900 and now has no more chips left and loses.

Since player C was eliminated before player B, player C is in a lower place than B. Note that at no time during this did it matter whether player A had B beat or not. Player A could have royal flush, C could have K-high straight flush, and player B could have J-high. The only thing that matters is the first place finisher in any pot, and at no point are B and C HU in a pot.

#18 11th February 2009, 5:52 PM

It's fair & long-standing tourney rule as others have mentioned. You both were beat by a better hand & the lower chip-stack @ start of hand finished lower place. That's fair.

#19 11th February 2009, 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexGuy

Two of us were eliminated in the same hand in a Sit and Go. My set beat her pair. However she went out in 4th place (ITM) and I was 5th (Bubbled). We were beat by a straight.

She had 1600 in chips while I only had 1500. That's why she finished better. In my opinion this is not a good rule. I had the second-best hand. Heads-up I would have beat her.

I'm sure y'all have experience with this and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

If only you had folded

#20 11th February 2009, 9:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventurebound

In this example there were 2 pots. One pot was between the 3 of you and one pot was between the other 2. The MAIN pot is decided first, and you lost it along with all of your chips. You are now eliminated. Then the player with the pair loses that hand and the rest of her chips to the straight. Now she's eliminated. That's the justification behind it and it's a standard rule in all tourneys, not just Pokerstars tourneys."

Corrected my post, no idea why I screwed up and typed side pot the first time....

#21 12th February 2009, 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

First the main pot is resolved. Player A wins that pot, player B loses 100 chips, as does player C. Player C now has no more chips left and loses.

Now the side pot is resolved. Player A wins that pot, player B loses all 900 and now has no more chips left and loses.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Main pot is always last to be resolved. In fact, side pots are resolved in the reverse order they were created. So if you had:

Main pot: 4 players
Side pot 1: 3 players
Side pot 2: 2 players

Then side pot 2 would be resolved first followed by side pot 1 followed finally by the main pot. And the online sites do it this way as well.

http://www.homepokertourney.com/robe..._-_TOURNAMENTS

http://www.homepokertourney.com/allin_examples.htm

And it isn't about when a player was eliminated in the hand. The person that started the hand (at any table in the tournament even) with the most chips gets the higher finish. And it makes sense to do it that way as well. The shorter stack can never eliminate the larger stack on a single hand, so in the case where both short and middle are removed at the same time the extra credit is given to the middle stack that was eliminated by a larger stack but would never have been eliminated by the shorter stack.

In fact, this rule isn't just about sidepots either. This is also why they have hand-for-hand play on the bubble. When you're on the bubble playing hand-for-hand and one person is eliminated at each of three different tables to bust the bubble, of those three the one that started with the fewest chips will be the bubble boy and the other two will cash.

#22 12th February 2009, 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

Sorry, I have to disagree. Main pot is always last to be resolved. In fact, side pots are resolved in the reverse order they were created. So if you had:

Main pot: 4 players
Side pot 1: 3 players
Side pot 2: 2 players

Then side pot 2 would be resolved first followed by side pot 1 followed finally by the main pot. And the online sites do it this way as well.

^ this.

It's probably the most important thing I got drilled into me when I was learning to deal. Do it any other way, and pots start getting given to the wrong people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

When you're on the bubble playing hand-for-hand and one person is eliminated at each of three different tables to bust the bubble, of those three the one that started with the fewest chips will be the bubble boy and the other two will cash.

Some live tournaments will treat this a little differently - I know at the Aussie Millions main event, for the past two years they've had two people eliminated on the same hand to burst the bubble during hand-for-hand play. Both years they split the prize money for the lowest cashing place between the two players. I suspect this is mostly an issue with not knowing exact stack sizes across multiple tables though, a problem you're never going to encounter online where there are firm hand histories etc.

#23 12th February 2009, 2:10 PM

This sounds like it went down by the book, I am fascinated by the Aussie Millions split pot deal though. I would like to know if they are just weird in Australia or if it was simply them not tracking stacks across multiple tables...

#24 12th February 2009, 3:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

Some live tournaments will treat this a little differently - I know at the Aussie Millions main event, for the past two years they've had two people eliminated on the same hand to burst the bubble during hand-for-hand play. Both years they split the prize money for the lowest cashing place between the two players. I suspect this is mostly an issue with not knowing exact stack sizes across multiple tables though, a problem you're never going to encounter online where there are firm hand histories etc.

Damn aussies...there they go, screwing things up again. Actually that was very nice of them, regardless of why they did it (though I suspect you're right about not knowing the chip counts). It would be interesting to know if in the Aussie Millions example if the stacks were at least somewhat close. I mean it would be silly to do what they did if one guy had only a couple $1k chips left and the other guy had $200k in chips. But if they both had mounds of chips then I can see it making sense.

#25 12th February 2009, 3:28 PM

That is a good question. Do they actually tally the stack size of all the players at each table when they go out? I just don't see how they could logistically handle all the tables at once. I have not participated in a large live tournament so I would be interested to see how they do it.

#26 12th February 2009, 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adventurebound

Corrected my post, no idea why I screwed up and typed side pot the first time....

See, you were right the first time. Sorry I alerted you at the tourney yesterday to my confusion by your & Zach's posts.

Okay, so I think I get it now. The hand winner had over 1600 chips to start. He beat the pair with 1600 chips first. But that fact was of no consequence as far as her finishing next. All that mattered was that the 1500 chip OP finished in the same hand.

And thanks JD: "The shorter stack can never eliminate the larger stack on a single hand, so in the case where both short and middle are removed at the same time the extra credit is given to the middle stack that was eliminated by a larger stack but would never have been eliminated by the shorter stack."

That's what I thought. I was just trying to envision the scenario in the OP. If the hand winner had just 500 chips before the hand, what would happen? He'd win the main pot of 1500 (500 from each of you), and the sidepot is just the OP (with 1500 and a set) & the other woman (with a pair) - the OP would have 1000 chips in the side pot and win 2000 (meaning just 1000 from the woman with the pair & 1600), and she'd be left with 100 chips. Is this correct?

#27 12th February 2009, 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexGuy

She had 1600 in chips while I only had 1500.

For sake of example below I'm going to pretend that the big stack that beat both of them had 2000 chips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

I was just trying to envision the scenario in the OP. If the hand winner had just 500 chips before the hand, what would happen? He'd win the main pot of 1500 (500 from each of you), and the sidepot is just the OP (with 1500 and a set) & the other woman (with a pair) - the OP would have 1000 chips in the side pot and win 2000 (meaning just 1000 from the woman with the pair & 1600), and she'd be left with 100 chips. Is this correct?

Big stack (BS) = 2000
Mid stack (MS) = 1600
Small stack (SS) = 1500

Main pot contains 1500 chips from all three. SS is all in and can only win the main pot. Main Pot = 4500 chips

Side pot contains MS's last 100 chips plus 100 more chips from BS. MS can possibly win both side pot and main pot. Side Pot = 200 chips.

At showdown MS and BS determine side pot winner. Someone gets those $200 chips, then the mainpot winner is determined and someone then gets those $4500 chips.

#28 12th February 2009, 5:20 PM

Placing is Always by chip count when All In.

I have never seen it done any differently.

Sometimes this can work to your advantage if low stacked and you win the hand, or sitout to let someone else get eliminated.

Hand strength doesn't matter, as you both Lost.

As with any hand it does not matter who had the second highest hand, unless there is a side pot where you have More chips than another player.
Anytime you have Less chips than any other player and Lose you just Lose, there is no Second best.

Tournament payouts have always been based on chip count when multiple players are All In as far as I know.

Good Luck and Good Games!

#29 12th February 2009, 5:43 PM

FYP for the scenario I just gave. It will be the best way for me to be sure I understand it. So let's say.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

Big stack (BS) = 1600 (worst hand with a pair)
Mid stack (MS) = 1500 (the OP with the set)
Small stack (SS) = 500 (he is the hand winner with the straight)

Main pot contains 500 chips from all three. SS is all in and can only win the main pot. Main Pot = 1500 chips

Side pot contains MS's last 1000 chips plus 1100 more chips from BS. MS can possibly win both side pot and main pot. Side Pot = 2100 chips. If BS wins, MS is eliminated. If BS loses, 100 chips are returned to her, and no one is eliminated.

At showdown MS and BS determine side pot winner. Someone gets those $2000 chips, then the mainpot winner is determined and someone then gets those $1500 chips.

Is that all correct? That and this:

"Okay, so I think I get it now. The hand winner had over 1600 chips to start. He beat the pair with 1600 chips first (the sidepot). But that fact was of no consequence as far as her finishing next. All that mattered was that the 1500 chip OP finished in the same hand."

Thanks again. Sorry for being so dense.

#30 12th February 2009, 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

Side pot contains MS's last 1000 chips plus 1000 more chips from BS (It's only 1000 more from BS to cover the last 1000 of MS's bet). BS still has 100 chips left in front of him.

Minor correction above. And technically, even if BS had gotten all his chips in first and MS called off his last 1000, even then the 100 additional chips would have been returned to BS then the side pot of 2000 chips would be resolved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

MS can possibly win both side pot and main pot. Side Pot = 2000 chips. If BS wins, MS is eliminated. If BS loses, 100 chips are returned to her, and no one is eliminated.

Side pot correct to 2000, but otherwise yes. BS wins then MS is out. MS wins and BS remains with 100 chips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

At showdown MS and BS determine side pot winner. Someone gets those $2000 chips, then the mainpot winner is determined and someone then gets those $1500 chips.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

"Okay, so I think I get it now. The hand winner had over 1600 chips to start. He beat the pair with 1600 chips first (the sidepot). But that fact was of no consequence as far as her finishing next. All that mattered was that the 1500 chip OP finished in the same hand."

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

Thanks again. Sorry for being so dense.

No worries, it's part of your charm.

#31 12th February 2009, 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

Minor correction above. And technically, even if BS had gotten all his chips in first and MS called off his last 1000, even then the 100 additional chips would have been returned to BS then the side pot of 2000 chips would be resolved.

No worries, it's part of your charm.

Right, couldn't remember if they threw the BS all-in and returned it the leftovers. I guess they do unless he's the last to act, then they just give you call button. I think (how's that for charm? ).

#32 12th February 2009, 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

There's no such thing as 2nd place in a hand. You either have the best hand or a losing hand (this goes for each pot, so if there are side pots obviously multiple winning hands).

In this example there were 2 pots. One pot was between the 3 of you and one pot was between the other 2. The side pot is decided first, and you lose it. You are now eliminated. Then the player with the pair loses that hand and the rest of her chips to the straight. That means she's eliminated. That's the justification behind it and it's a standard rule in all tourneys, not just Pokerstars tourneys.

This, is correct and well explained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

Sorry, I have to disagree. Main pot is always last to be resolved. In fact, side pots are resolved in the reverse order they were created. So if you had:

Main pot: 4 players
Side pot 1: 3 players
Side pot 2: 2 players

Then side pot 2 would be resolved first followed by side pot 1 followed finally by the main pot. And the online sites do it this way as well.

http://www.homepokertourney.com/robe..._-_TOURNAMENTS

http://www.homepokertourney.com/allin_examples.htm

And it isn't about when a player was eliminated in the hand. The person that started the hand (at any table in the tournament even) with the most chips gets the higher finish. And it makes sense to do it that way as well. The shorter stack can never eliminate the larger stack on a single hand, so in the case where both short and middle are removed at the same time the extra credit is given to the middle stack that was eliminated by a larger stack but would never have been eliminated by the shorter stack.

In fact, this rule isn't just about sidepots either. This is also why they have hand-for-hand play on the bubble. When you're on the bubble playing hand-for-hand and one person is eliminated at each of three different tables to bust the bubble, of those three the one that started with the fewest chips will be the bubble boy and the other two will cash.

Correct again here, I think Zach just mixed it up accidentally

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daniels

For sake of example below I'm going to pretend that the big stack that beat both of them had 2000 chips.

Big stack (BS) = 2000
Mid stack (MS) = 1600
Small stack (SS) = 1500

Main pot contains 1500 chips from all three. SS is all in and can only win the main pot. Main Pot = 4500 chips

Side pot contains MS's last 100 chips plus 100 more chips from BS. MS can possibly win both side pot and main pot. Side Pot = 200 chips.

At showdown MS and BS determine side pot winner. Someone gets those $200 chips, then the mainpot winner is determined and someone then gets those $4500 chips.

Correct again here JD.

#33 12th February 2009, 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divebitch

Right, couldn't remember if they threw the BS all-in and returned it the leftovers. I guess they do unless he's the last to act, then they just give you call button. I think (how's that for charm? ).

Yep. If you have the largest stack and are the last to act, then you'd just be able to call. If you're in the middle of the action then you could shove in. If you do and you are the largest stack still in, then the overage amount between your stack and that next stack will get returned to you the pots contested.

#34 13th February 2009, 3:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Correct again here, I think Zach just mixed it up accidentally

No pretty sure I was completely wrong .

Basically I sort of justified the rule that way to myself and it makes perfect sense, basically because once the main pot is done the players with no chips left can not win any more side pots and thus if another player now goes bust in a side pot the player with no opportunity to put money in the side pot goes bust first. No matter which way you put it though it makes sense that the smallest chip stack is the one to go out first if two go out on the same hand.

#35 13th February 2009, 8:16 PM

Wow, Thanks for this head up. Probably something I should have known, but a good point. If they had more money than you it doesn't matter if it is one dollar or a thousand. They had more when you went out so you get the lower position. I will have to remember that towards the bubble and calling someone all-in. Again, thanks for that heads-up!

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