Even the Pros cannot take a beat.

#1 7th September 2008, 11:43 PM

Been watching the 10k wcoop buy-in on and off all day, have to admit that I didn't see the hand but Isabelle Mercier took a then top ten placed Anette_15 all but out with a full house over a set.

Now I dont know if they have history but I thought this was poor form from Anette.

#2 8th September 2008, 12:31 AM

If she did get slowrolled there's really no problem there. Slowrolling's just low, but I wonder if Annette will get a chat ban for averting the filter?

#3 8th September 2008, 12:33 AM

What is slowrolling?
Is it same thing as slowplaying?

#4 8th September 2008, 12:41 AM

Slowrolling is basically purposefully turning over your winning hand slowly. I think there was a thread a week or two back that talked about this a little. What it comes down to is that slowrolling is poor poker etiquette.

I guess Mercier took a while to reveal her winning hand? I'm not quite sure how people slowroll online especially when there's a showdown. Am I missing something here?

#5 8th September 2008, 12:44 AM

Maybe she took a long time to raise toward the end of the hand.

#6 8th September 2008, 12:46 AM

Or maby she timed out before calling with the FH.
I see no problem with Annettes coment if she was indeed slowrolled.

#7 8th September 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindri_93

Or maby she timed out before calling with the FH.
I see no problem with Annettes coment if she was indeed slowrolled.

This.

If Annette pushes all-in and she takes like 3 minutes and finally calls with the full house, that is a slowroll, and it's one of the most dick things you can do when not actually cheating/stealing.

#8 8th September 2008, 12:53 AM

O.k. what difference does it make? Is it just the issue of wasting someones time?

#9 8th September 2008, 12:53 AM

How do you slowroll online...maybe their computers running slow.

#10 8th September 2008, 12:54 AM

annette is down with the internet players so i don't she'll receive any criticism if she was indeed slowrolled

#11 8th September 2008, 12:57 AM

Sure, slowrolling is bad. But that type of chat is worse. When someone slowrolls me, I just say "Nice slowroll". But Annette made herself look worse by hurling insults.

#12 8th September 2008, 12:58 AM

I was watching it a bit earlier too. Railed Tom McEvoy and her.

Annette_15: if u shove there i puke

^^^she is so lady like lol

#13 8th September 2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

Sure, slowrolling is bad. But that type of chat is worse. When someone slowrolls me, I just say "Nice slowroll". But Annette made herself look worse by hurling insults.

Why is this chat worse? They're just words. You think cursing and name-calling is worse than breaking the etiquette of a game? If Tiger's partner yelled during his backswing and he cursed him out afterwards, you'd honestly side with the partner who yelled during the backswing?

edit: Plus she's probably right.

#14 8th September 2008, 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooffyFooffy

O.k. what difference does it make? Is it just the issue of wasting someones time?

Well its simply poor etiquette.
If some one bets into you and you have the nuts(or close to it and no way your folding) taking time and acting "weak" to try to get the rest of the vilians chips in the pot is completly accepteble but if vilian pushes all-in and you use your whole time bank before calling with your FH,set ect is bad etiquette.
Your not changing any thing exepted giving your oponent false hope before basicly kicking him in the nuts.
Slowrolling in poker=Bad sportmanship.

#15 8th September 2008, 1:04 AM

lol I get it so there is no advantage to it it is just an ass move.
Thank you all.

#16 8th September 2008, 1:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

This.

If Annette pushes all-in and she takes like 3 minutes and finally calls with the full house, that is a slowroll, and it's one of the most dick things you can do when not actually cheating/stealing.

This makes better sense now.

Out of curiosity, was there anyone left to act after Mercier? I assume there wasn't given Anette's comments, but if someone was left to act, then that's about the only time I can see someone taking time to make a call - to induce another player to call or raise.

In any case though, the slowrolling was a bad move, though I'm not too fond of Anette's comments either.

#17 8th September 2008, 1:13 AM

Here's the HH, apparently she took over 5 minutes of the time bank.

PokerStars Game #20228966474: Tournament #200800005, $10000+$300 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (400/800) - 2008/09/07 18:22:44 ET
Table '200800005 34' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: NoMercy (60280 in chips)
Seat 3: PURPLEPILS99 (20106 in chips)
Seat 4: ocrowe (20750 in chips)
Seat 5: Annette_15 (69670 in chips)
Seat 6: Dariominieri (61756 in chips)
Seat 7: samh133 (28369 in chips)
Seat 8: VBOOS (75840 in chips)
Seat 9: x-13 (27818 in chips)
samh133: posts small blind 400
VBOOS: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
x-13: folds
NoMercy: raises 1400 to 2200
PURPLEPILS99: folds
ocrowe: folds
Annette_15: calls 2200
Dariominieri: calls 2200
samh133: folds
VBOOS: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 3h 6s]
NoMercy: checks
Annette_15: bets 5450
Dariominieri: folds
NoMercy: calls 5450
*** TURN *** [4c 3h 6s] A♣
NoMercy: bets 10000
Annette_15: raises 52020 to 62020 and is all-in
nitbuster is connected
NoMercy: calls 42630 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (9390) returned to Annette_15
*** RIVER *** [4c 3h 6s Ac] 6♣
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NoMercy: shows [3s 3d] (a full house, Threes full of Sixes)
Annette_15: shows [6h 5h] (three of a kind, Sixes)
NoMercy collected 123960 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 123960 | Rake 0
Board [4c 3h 6s Ac 6c]
Seat 2: NoMercy showed [3s 3d] and won (123960) with a full house, Threes full of Sixes
Seat 3: PURPLEPILS99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ocrowe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Annette_15 showed [6h 5h] and lost with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 6: Dariominieri (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: samh133 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: VBOOS (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: x-13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

#18 8th September 2008, 1:35 AM

Thanks zachvac the HH helps to understand the context better.

But I'm a bit confused - Unless I'm misinterpreting the HH, Mercier didn't have the full house before making the call, but she had the low set. Anette could've had a set of 4's, 6's, or even made trip aces on the turn.

Of course the issue was how long the Mercier took - 5 minutes does seem excessive, but I can see how someone could go in the tank for a while given that the hand could still be beat. I'm not pro/anti-Anette - I'm just trying to put the pieces together so I can understand the situation better.

Anyone have other thoughts about this?

#19 8th September 2008, 1:37 AM

I think 5 minutes is extremely excessive, I would be pissed too, whether or not she had the hand that is ridiculous.

#20 8th September 2008, 1:39 AM

lol she's never folding a set that short. Plus Annette is a super-aggro player from what I've seen. If they're deeper she may have considered folding but that short she'd have to be an idiot to fold a set.

#21 8th September 2008, 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Why is this chat worse? They're just words. You think cursing and name-calling is worse than breaking the etiquette of a game? If Tiger's partner yelled during his backswing and he cursed him out afterwards, you'd honestly side with the partner who yelled during the backswing?

edit: Plus she's probably right.

What part of "slowplaying is bad" don't you understand? Does it really appear to you that I am "siding with" a slowplayer? I think you need a dictionary and a reading comprehension course, son.

And you think throwing a fit is OK? Fine, Zachy. You go through life thinking whining like a little baby is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and think that cussing someone out is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and go through life not caring about making yourself look bad by throwing a hissy. Just keep thinking that Tiger doesn't look like an ass when he cusses people out.

And while were at it, you just keep crapping on people here on Cardschat and thinking nothing will come of it. You're a real professional. Did you stat this out like you do everything else? Then I think your stats are wrong because I'm not taking your crap anymore.

Put that in your Hold'em Manager!

#22 8th September 2008, 1:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PooffyFooffy

O.k. what difference does it make? Is it just the issue of wasting someones time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichKo

How do you slowroll online...maybe their computers running slow.

Yeah taking 5 minutes to decide on a Full House would be extreme slowrolling

Both in Live Games (where slowrolling is turning your cards over with a long delay)

and in Online Games (where slowrolling is making an obviously easy decision taking a lot of time--esp with the nuts when you are the last to act)

Slowrolling has always been associated with the Low of the Low
If you want people to think of you as a universal scum..then you do the practice

#23 8th September 2008, 1:53 AM

Even if Annette got slowrolled, i think she should've kept shut, i think she's just lowering her level to the level of the player who slowrolled her. It's normal to an amateur too complain about something, but i think a pro should keep it cool, just my opinion

#24 8th September 2008, 2:02 AM

Having seen the HH, I don't have a problem with Mercier taking 5 minutes there. Is she folding the set, probably not. But this is a $10K buyin. 5 minute tank jobs in $10K events happen all the time.

On a side note, Mercier was quite drunk and acted inappropriately at several WSOP events this year. Granted Annette didn't play in any of those because she isn't 21 yet, but perhaps Mercier is growing a reputation for herself.

#25 8th September 2008, 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

What part of "slowplaying is bad" don't you understand? Does it really appear to you that I am "siding with" a slowplayer? I think you need a dictionary and a reading comprehension course, son.

And you think throwing a fit is OK? Fine, Zachy. You go through life thinking whining like a little baby is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and think that cussing someone out is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and go through life not caring about making yourself look bad by throwing a hissy. Just keep thinking that Tiger doesn't look like an ass when he cusses people out.

And while were at it, you just keep crapping on people here on Cardschat and thinking nothing will come of it. You're a real professional. Did you stat this out like you do everything else? Then I think your stats are wrong because I'm not taking your crap anymore.

Put that in your Hold'em Manager!

Is this a level if not the irony is ridiculous.

#26 8th September 2008, 2:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D'wilius

Is this a level if not the irony is redirkulous.

I'd stay out of it if I were you.

#27 8th September 2008, 2:16 AM

5 minutes is probably extreme but this is hardly a slow roll. it isn't like mercier has the nuts here, and although yes she isn't folding here in a million years that doesn't mean one cannot think about the decision. After all it is a pretty big buy in tournament.

No need for the comments in any case (pot calling the kettle black tho as i let some ppl have it).

#28 8th September 2008, 3:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

What part of "slowplaying is bad" don't you understand? Does it really appear to you that I am "siding with" a slowplayer? I think you need a dictionary and a reading comprehension course, son.

And you think throwing a fit is OK? Fine, Zachy. You go through life thinking whining like a little baby is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and think that cussing someone out is the professional way to handle things. You go ahead and go through life not caring about making yourself look bad by throwing a hissy. Just keep thinking that Tiger doesn't look like an ass when he cusses people out.

And while were at it, you just keep crapping on people here on Cardschat and thinking nothing will come of it. You're a real professional. Did you stat this out like you do everything else? Then I think your stats are wrong because I'm not taking your crap anymore.

Put that in your Hold'em Manager!

Honestly, are you like specifically on some vendetta against me? wtf did I ever do to you? First in the joke thread where bw and I jokingly said some words. That one you may have had a point. Maybe it was a bit immature, but I personally thought it was funny, not in that we were cursing each other out but because we knew each other and support thought we were actually talking all that shit in a low-stakes tourney (again, no offense to people who play those buy-ins, but most chops are the high stakes MTTs. Not very many people chop $5 single-table sngs, that's what I mean by low-stakes). I forget exactly what you said but something along the lines of grow up and not funny.

Then the post on The Poker Mindset, where I dare to offer a contrary opinion. You jump on me and say that a review has already been done and link to yours. I knew it was there, I read it before buying it. But that doesn't mean I can't have a differing opinion. There's people on the total opposite of the political spectrum having a pretty constructive debate/discussion in the lounge on the Preisdential race in the US and politics. I have a differing opinion on whether I like a book or not and you throw a hissy fit.

Then this. My point is: would you have a problem if she had said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypothetical Annette

No need to slowroll just because I'm better than you

or is it the curse words? My point about it being true probably is with no history I'm thinking the only reason she slowrolled was because of who she was playing against. As in that statement is absolutely true. She just wanted to be able to talk about doing it against one of the best up and coming players today.

And if it's the cursing why is it so bad? They're just words. There's a saying back where I come from:

Quote:

Originally Posted by saying back where I come from

Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me

But for trying to say this I'm "crapping on you"?

Your statements about me being a stats-based player (whatever that means) or put that in your holdem manager? Obviously you have some kind of problem with me that goes beyond this.

And please explain to me what this means

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

And while were at it, you just keep crapping on people here on Cardschat and thinking nothing will come of it. You're a real professional. Did you stat this out like you do everything else? Then I think your stats are wrong because I'm not taking your crap anymore.

I would like you to provide me with proof that I crapped on people here and also for you to clarify wtf you mean by "stat this out like you do everything else".

I don't know what beef you seem to have with me but frankly I'm tired of you slandering me every time I post with my opinion. If you knew me at all you'd know that I don't talk a lot of shit, I prefer to let my game do the talking. And yeah, I use holdem manager and I use stats, like basically the majority of this forum/serious poker players do. It doesn't mean it's the only thing I use, and it has nothing to do with the topic at hand (or the previous one where you mentioned it).

And to have the arrogance to say I'm "crapping on people here" while doing something that could easily be described as crapping on me is pretty gutsy. In my time here at CC I've had an argument with pretty much one other poster, and it was someone trying to claim that it was correct to make an unprofitable play. Other than that no one else has felt I was crapping on them. So please, explain your reasoning on how I'm crapping on "people here at Cardschat".

We have differing opinions, and apparently you hate people who use statistics in a heavily math-based game.

Guess it'd be a bit much to ask for an apology for the here for the unbased slander? Did you think nothing would come of it?

#29 8th September 2008, 3:15 AM

I can see the problem with slow-rolling when you have the nuts, but having seen the HH it is obvious that the winning hand was NOT the nuts.

Do we know when the 5 minutes got used? Was it on the turn or after the flop? Put yourself in the place of the person who has been raised all-in by a top player. If they spent the time on the turn, it is perfectly acceptable to me. If after the river, there is no reason or excuse for it. The chips were already in at that stage.

Two other thoughts - it was a very bad all-in play with a small pair and a str8 draw - that might have contributed to the loser's frustration. She obviously hoped to bully and take it down before the river. When that plan failed, she knew she was cooked - any delay in seeing her fate would also have been very painful, I'm sure.

Finally, in a live game, they call the clock. Why do they allow 5 minutes on-line? It seems like a very long time?

#30 8th September 2008, 3:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feitr

5 minutes is probably extreme but this is hardly a slow roll. it isn't like mercier has the nuts here, and although yes she isn't folding here in a million years that doesn't mean one cannot think about the decision. After all it is a pretty big buy in tournament.

No need for the comments in any case (pot calling the kettle black tho as i let some ppl have it).

Well I don't know for sure but saw on 2+2 about the time. Not sure about how much clock they get just know it goes up in the upper buy-in tourneys. I think the general point though is Annette is pretty aggressive and is pushing a ton of non-set hands and that she would never fold the set in a million years. If the decision's made, why take time to make it?

Also, I'm not saying Annette's chat was acceptable, just that slowrolling is worse imo.

#31 8th September 2008, 3:27 AM

I got one thing to say to both of you drama queens!

#32 8th September 2008, 3:27 AM

Anette could have had a better fullhouse 6's over A's. If that was the case I'm sure she would have given Mercier half an hour to call. Hey you get upset when you lose, just look at some of these proes lately.

#33 8th September 2008, 3:28 AM

They don't normally get five minutes. As far as I know I think it's due to it being a WCOOP event they get longer than usual. In the Sunday Million, you only get a 120 second (2 minute) time bank.

#34 8th September 2008, 3:47 AM

I've gotta say, I don't really see that as a slowroll. Looking at the HH Mercier has bottom set, there's a possible straight on the board and the turn brought a flush draw, not to mention the possibilities of higher sets. Granted, it's fairly unlikely she was going to fold but you can't fault her for reviewing all the possiblities. I think Anettes comment just showed her immaturity, I see the same crap from idiots that overplay their hands all the time. Plain and simple seems like she was just pissed that Mercier made the correct call and the best hand won. Just my $.02.

#35 11th September 2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Honestly, are you like specifically on some vendetta against me? wtf did I ever do to you? First in the joke thread where bw and I jokingly said some words. That one you may have had a point. Maybe it was a bit immature, but I personally thought it was funny, not in that we were cursing each other out but because we knew each other and support thought we were actually talking all that shit in a low-stakes tourney (again, no offense to people who play those buy-ins, but most chops are the high stakes MTTs. Not very many people chop $5 single-table sngs, that's what I mean by low-stakes). I forget exactly what you said but something along the lines of grow up and not funny.

Then the post on The Poker Mindset, where I dare to offer a contrary opinion. You jump on me and say that a review has already been done and link to yours. I knew it was there, I read it before buying it. But that doesn't mean I can't have a differing opinion. There's people on the total opposite of the political spectrum having a pretty constructive debate/discussion in the lounge on the Preisdential race in the US and politics. I have a differing opinion on whether I like a book or not and you throw a hissy fit.

Then this. My point is: would you have a problem if she had said:

or is it the curse words? My point about it being true probably is with no history I'm thinking the only reason she slowrolled was because of who she was playing against. As in that statement is absolutely true. She just wanted to be able to talk about doing it against one of the best up and coming players today.

And if it's the cursing why is it so bad? They're just words. There's a saying back where I come from:

But for trying to say this I'm "crapping on you"?

Your statements about me being a stats-based player (whatever that means) or put that in your holdem manager? Obviously you have some kind of problem with me that goes beyond this.

And please explain to me what this means

I would like you to provide me with proof that I crapped on people here and also for you to clarify wtf you mean by "stat this out like you do everything else".

I don't know what beef you seem to have with me but frankly I'm tired of you slandering me every time I post with my opinion. If you knew me at all you'd know that I don't talk a lot of shit, I prefer to let my game do the talking. And yeah, I use holdem manager and I use stats, like basically the majority of this forum/serious poker players do. It doesn't mean it's the only thing I use, and it has nothing to do with the topic at hand (or the previous one where you mentioned it).

And to have the arrogance to say I'm "crapping on people here" while doing something that could easily be described as crapping on me is pretty gutsy. In my time here at CC I've had an argument with pretty much one other poster, and it was someone trying to claim that it was correct to make an unprofitable play. Other than that no one else has felt I was crapping on them. So please, explain your reasoning on how I'm crapping on "people here at Cardschat".

We have differing opinions, and apparently you hate people who use statistics in a heavily math-based game.

Guess it'd be a bit much to ask for an apology for the here for the unbased slander? Did you think nothing would come of it?

Dude, you obviously are clueless to what you've been doing here and the novel you just wrote proves it. You are zeroing in on instances instead of seeing the big picture. And I'm serious about the dictionary. You really need to look up the word "slander". So since you just don't get it, I guess I'll have to spell it out for you:

Crap #1 - That so-called "joke" you pulled on the entire forum was pretty childlike and not funny at all. I'm not the only one who thought so. You offended quite a few of us who believed you. And yes, I told you to grow up in that thread. Consider it a favor.

Crap #2 - I know you read IceMonkey's blog and you even had him sweat you in a video, so you know he could use some confidence boosting. So when he comes out and cheers himself for making progress and says something about the book that helped him, you jump in and say how "redundant" you thought the book was. Gee, thanks for the boost, but that wasn't the point of his thread.

Crap #3 - Singling out and quoting my first post here while putting words in my mouth. You totally twisted what I said and the only reason I can think of that you would do this is to try to make me look bad. Who has the vendetta against whom?

And yes, I DO have a vendetta and it is against anybody who repeatedly craps on this forum's members-in-good-standing. I guess it's because I care a lot about this place. So don't worry. You aren't the first and you probably won't be the last. But be warned that I don't give up easily. Ask the old regulars.

The stats reference is because you don't seem to understand people and have shown that you don't think about how people feel before you act. Everything is black and white to you, just like stats. But the world isn't like that and the sooner you learn that fact, the better for you.

****
Now if you wanna keep this going, in public or otherwise, I'm as game as you are.

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