Why is donk betting so bad?

As the title states; Why is donk betting so bad?

I mean, can't we all think of situtations where it is the right thing to do?

It's not bad per se. It can be very bad or very good. It depends.

Calling oop is pretty bad in most cases, though. And you need to do that to get a chance to donk bet.

Can you define donk betting at all?

The Muppetteer

Betting out of position when you were not the preflop raiser.

I think its usually seen as bad because for it to happen, someone in late position has to 3bet preflop, which indicates a high Pair or AK type hand.

Then on the flop, the person in early position feels that they are c-betting so they donk bet.

But the preflop action dictates that the person in late position most likely has a high over pair hand or TPTK so will in turn 3bet the flop.

So really donk betting the flop (when done as a c-bet) just over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive.

Against most players, a 3 bet in late position means they have the type of hand that will be good on most flops, so raising with the intention of pushing them off it is completely pointless... hence its a donk bet.

There are situations where it works, but before you can understand them you must first understand why its usually a bad thing to do.

no it does not.

preflop: everybody folds, BTN open raises, SB folds, BB calls.
flop: BB donk bets.

This is by far the most common donk betting scenario.

I agree with you Belgosussie, this is the most common donk bet scenario.
I think the reason they do this is that it will often work. It all depends on who you are playing. I will donk bet if it i hit the flop hard and hope the raiser thinks i am donk betting and plays back at me.

It's not bad at all. It is kinda bad in the way it is most used, which is hmm I have a medium hand I'll see where I'm at and donk small and fold to a raise. But if you balance or just use it to exploit what people think it means, it's definitely a solid part of an overall strategy. I know HU players use it a lot and against many players I think calling preflop and mixing donks and check-raises as bluffs along with value bets can be a good way to mix it up instead of just 3-betting or folding 100% of the time.

At low limits where EVERYONE c-bets, donk betting is not a good strategy if you hit the flop, either check-call-bet turn or check-raise.

Please read thread before posting. You clearly don't know what "donk betting" means.

How is that possible? he is an expert just look under his name.

He is an expert just like you are an amateur, it is beyond his control, but the hit and run post he made is within his control.

Maybe this is too simplified or ion correct but I thought donk betting was calling big bets on draws hoping to get lucky.

The Muppetteer

no a "donk bet" and "stop and go" are the same if that helps. basically you call a raise OOP then bet into the raiser of the flop. this can be a good bet in 2 spots i can think of. 1. you were set mining and hit your set on a board full of draws. 2. you called a raise in the blinds from a probably steal and you donk the flop as opposed to 3betting preflop. i'm sure there are other times this is a good move but cant think of any off hand.

Another clueless post from someone who did not read the thread and therefore has no clue what donk betting means. Thanks for sharing.

Say BB has mid pair and calls to see flop and hits a set or better. What is proper play, check raise, check call? Lots of supposes out there cause you would need more info on BTN and situation...i.e. tourney or ring, stack sizes, etc. But this is a general question.

It depends on villain. How wide he opens, how often he cbets, ... Typically, donk betting looks a bit weaker than check-raising, so it's better than c/r if you think villain's range has a lot of medium hand strength hands that he would be inclined to pot-control.

Donk betting is not different from any other type of betting. You want to bet the top of your range for value and the bottom of your range as bluff provided you can assume you'll have some fold equity. And you don't want to bet the middle of your range since you can catch villain's bluffs with it. That's what a lot of fishes do incorrectly. They'll donk the flop because they have second pair and want to know where they stand. And for some strange reason they expect their opponent to respond truthfully...

And yet another clueless post from someone who did not read the thread and therefore has no clue what donk betting means. Isn't that great?

Okay, you're leaving something out (or I am not understanding something). Is this a planned move, irrespective of the actual cards? Let's say the BB has KK. Should he fold? Should he reraise? Let's say he calls and the flop come J73, should he not bet?

But Like Zack says, seems like it can be useful to know where you stand. Let's say you have AT suited, hit middle pair and a nut flush draw. If you don't raise, what are the chances the original better will check? You might get him to fold with any smallish - medium bet post-flop if he missed. No? Sometimes I think that checking in these situations invites the original raiser to come back with a huge bet (bluff).

Reread zach's post. He says the exact opposite. He says donk betting can be good, but that it's really bad when the intend is to know where you stand.

Betting hands of medium strenght to know where you stand is horrible, especially oop. You fold out any hand that you beat and give money to any hand that beats you. Which is the exact opposite of the good reasons for betting (folding better hands and getting value from weaker ones)

middle pair + over + nut flush draws is a monster and you can either donk or check-raise, in both cases with the intention to get all the money in on the flop if villain raises.

next person to post in this thread without clearly having at least vaguely understood the topic and not just having seen the word "donk" and taken it as a license to post garbage gets banned for a week.

(i.e. i've had to clean this thread up and i don't like having to do work)

I may stand corrected here.. but my understanding is that a DONK BET and a STOP and GO are two diff things.

Donk Bet like it's said up there is betting into the initial raisor out of position.

A STOP and GO is calling a preflop raise with the intention of pushing post flop if the board is right usually as SB or BB when either raises...

The big diff is the latter, you have the intent of pushing before you called preflop but donk betting is well.. dumb (to answer the question above) because you know most likely the initial aggressor is going to raise over you. On times that can be a smart move is... you know your opponent has weak holdings coz he is a LAG and you're trying to scare him off the pot. You've actually value betting coz you've hit the nuts or hit the flop hard...

Rule of thumb is donk bets are only good for inducing bets IMHO.

there were a couple questions on when to "donk" bet. if i flop a set i'm most likely to "donk" bet. when i flop a set i want to protect my hand on wet boards. if deep stacked i find a "donk" bet is the best way to get all in by the river. especially if the villian is capable of checking a made hand behind for pot control. what i've been doing lately is "donk" betting w/a smallish bet making it look like a "blocking" bet trying to name my price on a draw heavy board. i'm finding if the OR has a made hand they got no problem raising then calling a big 3bet by my on the flop. if however i flop a set and the board is dry and the active stacks are smaller i may check/call the flop. but for the most pard i'm leading out w/ a strong made hand.

you're actually doing good against top pair. For instance,

Board: Ks Td 6s
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.313% 51.31% 00.00% 508 0.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 48.687% 48.69% 00.00% 482 0.00 { KhQh }

And a lot of people will actually fold top pair against a lot of aggression, so if you add fold equity, getting it all-in on flop with a pair + over + nut flush draws is pretty standard.

Donk Betting works best IMO

1) against 2 opponents, after a pre-flop raise and with one caller and you are in one of the blinds

2) on a flop that is likely to have missed the opponents, 5 3 2/ Q 6 6 ...

When you do this you should bet half the pot or a little less, but I think you should wait to donkbet, untill you have been at a table for a while and you have some notion on how your opponents play.

I didnt mean to get in the middle of something here.I didnt understand exactly what you mean by *donk betting*I apologize.I dont need to spam the forum.That wasnt my intention.Carry on,Ill keep my comments private.

i'm making the check/raise play but finding i'm getting into trouble as the only hands that call my shoves(probably over shoves) are sets. do you have a rule of thumb as to what size stack(SPR) to make this play with?

You mean you check/raise all in? It's probably a bit of overkill when stacks are really deep. Whether it's good or not depends on how wide villain's range is, not just on SPR.

Note that only getting called by sets is a wonderful result. It means you are getting the maximum benefit from fold equity against the major part of his range (top pairs) that has 50-50 equity in the pot but folds. And you still have 30% equity against the sets.

well to bring this back to donk betting. if i got a pair and flush draw. i normally just donk w/a pot sized bet. my reasoning is all those hands that are slightly ahead of me may fold to me on the flop. also top pair hands that raise me may still fold to a shove winning me a bigger pot than a check/raise would have. so IMO donk betting a hand like this is more profitable.

A donk bet can be bad, Because a check to the preflop raiser should by all accounts end up with a mandatory bet. (90%)

-If you fail to make a C-bet your loosing money in the long run and it helps diguise the times you make a great hand and everyone just expects you to try and steal the pot after the flop.

With this in mind, if you donk bet your not giving the preflop raiser any chance to try to steal the pot. If you bet into him and he missed he can fold too easily without investing any more chips so your now loosing money by DONKING.

Thats how i see it anyway

Or if the preflop raiser is a nit and you made a set you can donk bet and then shove over the nit's raise with AA's that he just can't let go and get paid.

As has been said, there is a time and place for it. Most people are just wrong when they do it.

Actually it's even worse than this. You never fold out better while allowing some worse to raise you and get you off the hand. Say it's QT3r flop and you have AT. You donk bet to see where you stand. I had 56 for complete air but I know that a donk bet means you have a marginal hand that you don't want to stack. I will be raising you and barreling pretty much any turn/river that doesn't pair the board. Then if like there's an A and I barrel and you raise I can easily fold my air. So the point is not only does it fold out worse and get calls from better in general, sometimes it's even worse and allows worse hands to get you to fold.

Ok...
Heres my view.... When playing tight players a raise can get them to fold, and when you have a table that won't fold to a raise at a 2NL table it is best to limp in....... case in point AK back to back raised the 1st on .10 in the BB and won with ACE high, the 2nd hand i limped in and won well hitting an A, an a K, even took down a bigger pot the 2nd time.... I thought it would look "ODD" doing the same raise back to back, thought i would set a trap up....
1st time i thought i was beat, and the 2nd time i would try a trap....
I think my point is that you got better odds when raising...., I will post the 2 hands, to see how good i did, in the right place.
P.S zack i had to do it base on the table...

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tbh, I think if you want to get voluntarily banned for a week, you can just ask the mods. No need to spam the threads until they oblige...