Laying down AK

Wow, I had a guy really unhinge on me at final table last night. $85 buy-in, pays top 4 and there are 8 of us left - I am chip leader in the BB.
MP shoves about 7 BB (I certainly would call this guy)
Button shoves about 12 BB (Now I have to think)
Comes to me (about 40 BB) - I tank for a little bit and flip over Big Slick. Table is a little shocked. Hand plays out in a pocket pair vs PP fashion - no A and no K on the board when it's over.
After the hand is over this guy starts in on me about me missing the opportunity to knock 2 players out and get closer to the money and it's +EV - yada, yada. All I could say was there are other factors involved and it's not my job (as chip leader) to knock players out. You'd think I called his Mama a whore.
Anyway - oddly enough - almost the same exact situation the week before only 3 guys had shoved and folded AK. (I would have won that monster pot on a 1 outer - but if it happens again I am laying it down again)
I cetainly have great respect for AK but as last person to act I have to consider how many of the those shoves are pocket pairs and how many are holding an A and what does this do to my winning percentage.
As chip leader I also hold a certain luxury of choosing the coin flips I want to get involved with.
There is no doubt I will lay down hands most will not. Two hands later I had JJ on the button that I went 5xBB with. BB shoved over the top and I layed them face up while he showed KK - then the table was less indignant and started realizing it takes balls to lay these hands down.
There was the thought they might come after me thinking I am uber-too-tight but the ones paying attention had to also consider the big piots I had taken down earlier with 2-5 and 3-4. Just the same I took the opportunity to call a solo shove w/QJ because a) it was the right call, and 2) they would see I wasn't just going to blind out waiting for AA.
Anyway, AK just doesn't seem as mighty when you have to call multiple shoves in last position.
As chip leader my #1 priority is protecting my stack...
#2 priority is accumulating more chips...
...and when a good opportunity presents itself - knock someone out.

I wouldn't have shown them the JJ personally, because you don't need to justify yourself. Let them think whatever they like, you need to be doing what is right for you, and you alone.

Know what you're saying - if I had it to do again I should not have shown anything outside of a showdown. I think I have a leak of getting too friendly at the final table when I should be in killer focus mode (like I am the rest of the tournament).
I can "kinda" see me showing JJ but there was really no reason at all to show AK. I wasn't even really in the hand. It was just a "look what I can do!" moment.

Good reasoning IMHO.

Sound advice...There is no shame in laying down anyhand you dont feel comfortable playing regardless the reasoning..If everyone played the same may as well just have bots playing bots..I respect your decision although I personally whould have called and lost as usual.

Horrible fold. The only thing worse is the idiot who told you how horrible a fold it was.

In general I think both laydowns are a bit too tight for 8 handed against 2 small stacks.

AK against 2 PP and a chance to knock 2 out..... I think I have to take that chance more times than not.

JJ getting 3 Bet normally I would instacall or shove but would depend on BB stack and previous play.

I am sure you had your reasons for both laydowns and had considered ranges, images, and previous play. Still in general calls I think would be EV+ however I understand that no one but you was there and you made the right call for then.

Congrats, I am happy that those laydowns were the right move for you at the time. How did you end up?

All the hands in OP are pretty bad folds. the AK with 3 all-ins is most reasonable. You don't win donkaments by dodging coolers.

There were only 2 AIs in front and the 1st one was from a 4bb stack. Folding there last to act after posting the BB is pretty damn bad. Results oriented thinking is making the OP think he made the right play but he's wrong. Showing his cards compounds the mistake.

I'm shocked you can fold either of the hands you said.

You have more equity than ever to be calling with A,K vs a 7blind shover (A,x,kx,qx,any boardways etc you dominate. Most likely you have him crushed as his most "likely" shoving range is smaller Aces or K,x. Pocket pairs are possible, but still enough equity to call.

As for 12blinds shoving his stack, he's most likely just trying to isolate the 7blind shover with maybe A,5s+ 5'5s+ (more times than ever, as opposed to small pair vs small pair) any broadways etc, again you dominate both either way.

Not sure I can/will ever fold Jacks on the button in a spot like this. For one, you have to realise now, you showed over A,K that you folded, absolutely awful fold (sorry) and he now knows you can fold basically anything that's not Aces with <40blinds..

Of course everytime you raise, he shoves with anything. Ok, you show Jacks and he shows Kings, that's just quite lucky in a sense..not a "good" fold by any means you have to be calling these especially after the information the table now has on you, you can/will be quite easily over run.

Or more likely "look what "we" can do now to mr.nit, shove anything when he raises and he folds unless he holds Aces"

yeah showing is pretty horrible.

One of the first things I do in a live tournament is try to figure out who is mostly an Internet player and who's a live player. People talk way too much about the way they play hands during tourneys and once they say one of the key idiot phrases:

1. "coinflip at best"
2. "behind deuces"
3. "...Anna Kournikova"

...I have soo much information about you it's not even funny.


I was talking about this sentence "almost the same exact situation the week before only 3 guys had shoved and folded AK."
don't know what the stack sizes were there but I could see it being a fold under some circumstances. The hands he describes in detail in the OP are absolutely horrible folds.

I personally would have insta called. And if I had folded, I would not show them that I had folded a big hand.

Still with you Blitz, and for that silly remark about results-oriented, damnit, when I'm CL with 4 seats to go, I expect results!

I found this quite an interesting video to watch about people playing too tightly in SNGs:

good analysis, only hand I disagree with him with is opening A9o with the huge stack in the BB.

I see this in some of the priv. online games > why are we raising '5x' & then folding to a shove? (why sooooo big if our intentions are to fold if we're shoved on?... umm.... why sooooo big period?)

The AK fold to a 7bb & 12bb shove is pretty bad for sure. Even if they're both uber-tight, w 40bb's it's not like you're going to be left with 10bb's if you call & lose either.

I don't think the focus is 'the oppurtunity to knock two players out' (< who cares if they're knocked out?!?!? Keepin' a shorty in can be great!). More about picking up a nice chunk of chips imo. (even if player 1 is only shoving 66+,AJ+, & other guy 88+,AQ+ this is still a call here... do ya think they'd ever be that tight though???)

snap call AK, lol at opening to 5x and then folding with jacks - live pros lol

Lay down AK, and call suited cards...

That 2% advantage or whatever it is, is more for gaining variance-based edges. You'll win "all-in" type bets more often if you focus less on 'os' hands...

How many times have you seen 4-suited cards on teh boards???

Oh pleaszzz .... why even bother posting? Are you in perma-level mode? .. or just a huge fish (if first.. why bother.. if 2nd.. guess you got me)

Yes, you're right.

How drunk are you?? I'm pretty drunk for the bar...

1/10 troll account, getting boring already

Do ya figure it's hate? Maybe just wondering why you post what you post.
Like, what's your point? Just come onto this forum lately & try to cause shit? What's the point?

nice advertising troll!

I'm guessing it's because he's a sad/lonely individual with nothing better to do on a day to day basis and makes him feel slightly better about himself.

He has had some hints from Mods about post content and he seems to have little respect for the general quality level of this forum, as well as ignoring the mods.

He must just not like it here......

He can't answer you anymore. Been wanting to take care of that one for a while now.

LOL

"BAM!!!"

tks

LOL - well I decided to avoid this thread over the weekend before posting. Wasn't expecting such a derailment
Okay - hand one folding AK with two shoves - always has been a snap call for me. Just didn't like it this time. I know it was crazy and I even announced, "I'm the only guy in the this entire casino dumb enough to lay this down." But, sometimes you have to gamble. It does work both ways. I was less than 50% - chip leader - somebody was going to get either knocked out or crippled anyway - and I was pretty convinced I could outplay all but maybe one guy after the flop (the "other factors involved") - so I layed it down looking for heads up later. I got it against both of those guys and took one out with A9 vs A6 and the other with QJ vs Q9 (maybe they were expecting me to fold against their awesome mighty shoves?).
JJ - that was such an obvious lay down I cannot even tell you. Not to get into specifics, after his shove I engaged the guy in conversation, had him count his chips for me (which he did), he was a familiar opponent from other nights and no doubt he held a monster. I had to lay it down. Might have even laid QQ down based on my read (which I have never done), but I doubt it.
Now the overall theme of this. I was absolutely killing my local tourneys for almost 6 months straight after making a huge adjustment to my game (brought on by a rapidly dwindling bankroll). Tighten up with an emphasis on protecting my stack and survival.
When I started that my chart skyrocketed (again, for several months). Then shortly after BF (knowing live play was now my only real option) I focused more effort on study, reading, website training subscriptions, going to seminars, talking with Greg Raymer and Dennis Phillips, among others. My chart started going downhill and was less than half of my earning before that. Okay - variance is a bitch but I felt it was more. My wife pointed out it was ever since I went to "that damn seminar". That can't be it! There were other factors like no longer putting hours in online. I was learning more, applying it but it was getting thrown back in my face. After some searching and figuring out while staring at that damn chart I realized I was overplaying the field. I was getting too involved and had forgot the basic fundamentals - stay tight and protect your stack. I just recently got back to it Since then 7 of 9 final tables and 5 of 7 in the money. But here I go being results oriented. Yeah, yeah, yeah, short term - but I don't think it's all a coincidence. I am putting myself in position to be there at the end. Before I was just playing cards without regard to surviving.
Anyway, it was just a coincidence that 2 of my 3 AK laydowns happened in that week. I don't plan on making a habit of it. I know it was crazy to lay it down, but by god I have done worse shit and it was stuff that crippled me.
I will still play some "bust 'em hands" (in position) now and then to keep everyone off balance. I will have to remember who all saw me make that fold and expect some possible repurcussions in the future.
And to answer the question earlier - I finished second and no it was not any of the guys I faced. It was a guy who picked off the guy I folded JJ to. Only one of the guys I laid down to finished in the money.

But why raise '5x' otb w JJ? (especially if we have any intentions of folding to a shove?.. this makes no sense to me).

personally im on the same page after tightening up the screws quite abit i have noticed a great improvement in itm results , maybe its because of the field being so agressive these days and im playing oposite of what there doing? still very important to play the man , steal from the tight and come in with the best of it from the lags. oh yea balence is my favorite word now

Aww well - he looked at his hand before I bet and I could tell he wanted to see a flop so it was an attempt to push him off his hand. I understand what you are saying. I definitely do not usually play JJ that heavy (usually like 3.5 BB).
I F'ed it up. Another leak - it gets around midnight, brain goes mushy and I do bad things man - bad things.
I got out because he had a major chip stack that would have hurt me badly. Again as chip leader I feel one of my priorities is protecting my stack - and YES - going 5x is not helpful to that end.
I am still learning.
BTW, got in hand with the same guy last night at final table. He shoved with me in SB holding 33 (he has me covered - barely).
His "tells' this time made it an easy call versus his KQ.