Early Levels and Big Pairs

This is a Re Occurring theme for me, and The worst part is I don't learn nothing from it.....Here's the Question I pose to everyone....This hand has been bugging....It's really bugging me.....I know it's a free roll ok, and there's really nothing to get all to upset about for....Yet the thing about it is, this happens to Me (All of us), in Big Tourneys where the money is really a big thing.....It's the start of a New Tourney........


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

UTG (t2740)
UTG+1 (t140)
MP1 (t400)
MP2 (t1560)
MP3 (t2820)
CO (t1440)
Button (t1440)
Hero (SB) (t1460)
BB (t1500)

Hero's M: 24.33

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
5 folds, CO bets t120, 1 fold, Hero raises to t400, 1 fold, CO raises to t1440 (All-In), Hero?


What do you do? Do you risk it all here, and be glad, do you fold and doubt/Question yourself...Do you call, and play a hand OOP? What do you really do about such a hand? Heck What do you thing of this? Could it be JJ, KK/AA? Do you just Chalk it up to Variance....Should I just play these big pairs more passively? What should I really do, I ask this because I find myself in these Awful spots and then Start to really 2nd guess myself when they do show up with the better pairs....So over all, What would you do in this Case, with say QQ+

In a 1500 chip tourney this is a call all day. (for me anyway) It's not an awful spot at all. Only 2 hands have you crushed so be happy and get it in IMO. Generally I'm happy to risk it all with QQ early in a tourney. You can mix in some flat calls in position and get away cheap if you get an ugly flop and have someone betting hard. AA/KK i'm looking to get it all in if I can obv.

You have a 1460 starting stack and you put in 400 chips in with a raise. That's 27% of your stack in the pot that you're thinking about giving up. I don't like folding here unless you've got a monster read on the player. If not, get your money in there.

Don't play big pairs passively early in a tournament because these are what win you big pots and get your big stacks. The level of play is so loose at the start with a lot players looking to double up that they'll call/shove super wide. Seriously the play is horrendous. Will they get lucky sometimes and hit/have a bigger pair? Sure, but that shouldn't prevent you from playing your strong hands strong. And if you do play passively, you're only cheating yourself on the pots that you win. Don't worry so much about getting busted when you have big pair, but worry about not getting max value at such the early stages. That's my main problem...

I have to agree with the push/call here. Early in freeroll many players are looking for the quick double up or get out with any 2 cards, seen them toss 95os here even.

I feel its a gotta call/push, hope its not KK or AA your up against and that best hand holds up.

Whenever you get 2-1 on your money for all the chips with QQ you should pretty much be fistpumping. This is a call with TT.

When you 3bet, what was 'your plan' if villain shoved?

I seriously was hoping he didn't shove....My Plan was to see what exactly he does....From there Proceed...Yet when he shoves...There goes my Plan out the window....So that's why I ask this question

As a note for future similar situations, if you think that calling his shove could be a real mistake (i.e. you put him on a very tight range for some reason), then I wouldn't raise so large.

But the fact is that you're under 40 BBs deep versus the CO opener, and I would be happy to get it in here.

I would tend to raise slightly smaller, like to around 320-ish even out of position, because I think over-3xing narrows the shover's range a bit since he probably assumes you are going to call the majority of the time when you have already put that much of your stack in. If you lower your raise size slightly then he can think he has more fold equity and shove a wider range. (Fyi, for this reason I would raise to ~275 if I were in position against an aggro opponent doing this.)

I'm pretty sure thats not a plan. A plan is an reaction to someone elses action. So the plan would be;
1. If he shoved I do a
2. If he flatted I do b
3. If he folded I do c

How you would react to each scenario is your plan.

I'm going to shove every time, and have. One time I ran into AA but the others were hands like AK, TT, JJ, even 99 once.

Well to Answer the First 1, I really can't that's why I'm asking this question...
If He Flatted which was What I was hoping for, then in that case depending on the flop, I was gonna Take the hand away...Depending on the Flop I was gonna Bet out into Him....

If he folded I would'nt have minded at all

you should be pretty happy to get shoved on here. Villain should pretty much never flat so if that was your plan you planned it wrong.

in a freeroll this isn't even worth asking imo, insta call. after your raise even racing against AK is profitable because of the extra money in the pot. only way i lay down QQ in this spot is if it were late in the tourny where i was deepstacked and had a decent idea that my opponent had KK or better.

'Know' ahead what you will do... ie. if you're raising 'have a plan' (don't just mash buttons)
why 3bet pre then? (if your 'plan' is 'hoping he'll flat'.. & then 'hoping you'll take it away from him). I'd be wondering who'd be flatting here once you've put in near 1/3 of your stack?

Well would JJ<Not Flat here? Since they have Position on us ....Or is that an Auto Jam Also?

JJ should shove or fold.

In general flatting 28% of your stack preflop is bad unless you are trapping plan on getting it in on any flop.

I think the biggest factor here is your starting chip stack. With only 1500 chips, we don't have the leisure of waiting for a better spot, because in a half hour we could be down to 10-15 BB's. I think with such a low starting stack, this is a MUST call. Yes, he will show up with AK here sometimes. But more often he will show up with AQ, JJ, 1010 etc. Say GG to him when he has KK or AA..cooler IMO with such a short stack.

If you had 5k to start, and it was in the first few levels, I will even fold KK sometimes if i have the right read preflop and the situation calls for it. Lets say we all start with 5k and its the 2nd or 3rd level of a $120 buy in. UTG raises, UTG +2 is a MTT reg, and he 3 bets. We wake up on the button with QQ. We decide the best play is to 4 bet here to about 1150. He 5 bet shoves instantly. I'm folding QQ here, because its the right play. KK will be a very tough spot. It would depend on my read and my opponents strength. But mucking KK there is correct sometimes as well. The most important thing any good MTT reg will tell you, is that they are too good late in tournaments to risk going out early in a marginal spot.

This hints at the best advice I've ever been given. I now try very hard to create a plan with every bet. Think steps ahead and you are playing chess while your opponent is still messin with checkers.

I'd like to thank all for there In-put...I'm still thinking about what P.O said as to the Plan ahead thing, And to be honest I really don't quite Understand that all to well...

I mean I have the same problem basically when it's my tourney life on the line rather then there's....So in this Case I mean My thinking was C.O raiser, and I have QQ....So I'm gonna RR and hopefully he either Jams in on me as P.O and Puffy and others have stated that they will Jam far and wide, and then Call and win....Yet at the Same time because this is a League Free Roll and your playing the same players Most of the time, I had a Some what decent note on this player, so Because of my note I was Wary as to what to do, and I think I played it badly because I didn't listen to what My note said about the player, and so because of this reason I was doubting myself...So that's why I asked the question...

So he did have KK and I did lose, and that's that...I also what to ask more about Going with your notes.....And 1 more thing about what P.O said if you could care to explain more...


Once again thx all for the input

I'll spend some time responding here in a bit (re: 'plan ahead')... but currently am participating in an MTT HH review/coaching session (but am trolling the interwebs/poker forums/checking emails at same time, lol).

Still waiting on your reply P.O btw

early in a freeroll, i just shove, regardless of action, so many people just try to double up with ATC early on

3bet smaller, snap call shove

Just curious exactly how much should I have made it in this Case Pascal? 300? 250? 240? Exactly what amount and also should we still not be concerned after the smallish 3 bet to get 5 bet shoved into?

I'm 3betting to 300-350ish.

Do you mean 4bet shoved into?

sry I thought I hit the 4 rather then the 5 lol

exactly

and it's not simply b/c freeroll = lesser players ... early in freeroll you have even good players with the mentality of "hmmm, do i really want to play this freeroll or is there something else i wanna do? ... they are not overly concerned about busting, but naturally wouldn't mind doubling up either"

if he 4bet shoves we call because we have a pair of queens

Good Point QQ is hard to fold

Pascal can you explain what P.O meant cuz I've been waiting to figure it out but he's not responding, so Can you plz take the time out to explain if you don't mind ty

ie. size your bets 'with a plan' (read jenny's post above)

Sometimes I feel motivated to post... other times I don't. Probably not good to post while not motivated?