Omaha H/L

Reguarding a nut low hand, involving A2
It seems that I lose alot of chips with this hand.
I usually dont reraise with it, I just call. But it seems most of the time I quarter. l dont feel I should fold , but I'm tired of quartering
Not really sure what I'm asking here..lol
But any advice on this type of situation would be appreciated
TY

It's worth a preflop raise if you also have okay high cards, otherwise, just call and hope for a good low, but somethimes you will bw counterfeited if a 2 comes on board and someone holds A3...

and in O8, A2 isn't a hand, it's only half a hand, so it depends what else you have to what you do...eg:

AA23...RAISE, REREAISE..

A29Q, call, but you can still get away from it post flop, raise only if in position, if many people reraising, you could fold preflop unless in the blinds.

You might want to check out this thread, developed into same discussion....

Could somebody explain this Omaha showdown for me?

Sah89 makes a good point about getting counterfeited. First off though, if you have only 2 low cards (A2), excellent chance you'll have NO LOW when an A or 2 flops, unless a 4th low card comes (grim). IF that happens, the counterfeiting comes in when you cannot use the nice 2 on the board. Your low is to the 3 highest low cards, but others can use the 2 on the table. This is how many screw up. Let's say you have A2, and the first 4 cards are 2578. You THINK you still have the low, but it's to the 8. Anyone with even a 36 is to the 7, and has you beat. THAT is counterfeiting. Even a 5 or 6 in your hand (with the A2 can come in very handy.

Now if you have A23 or even A24 or A34, there's a far less chance that 2 of your 3 low cards will hit. In the case of A34, you hand can be more powerful than than A2 if a 2 (or even an ace) hits the board, and f*#ks up all the raisers' A2 lows - you're less likely to split the low (as well as more likely to win it period, even if it's not the absolute nuts). She also makes a good point about the low being only half the hand. A2 paired with a rainbow of 8Q is a weak hand. See the flop as cheaply as possible. If a low rainbow hits the board and everyone's reraising, rest assured you will 1/4 the pot. You'll probably still make money if more than 4 people are in the hand.

Personally, I'm not a fan of reraising until I see the flop (ok, maybe that AA23 if double-suited ). But if limit, I'll call down anything to JUST see the flop with A2. There's a good chance there won't even BE a low, especially if you don't see 2 low cards on the flop. There's always plenty of time to raise after the flop, no matter what comes.

Oh, last words, if there are fewer than 5 people in the pot, and you feel certain you don't have a high hand, stop raising with your nut A2 low. Just call. Last last words... In the other thread, we talked about splitting a low 3 ways. It's uncommon, but to say there needs to be 6 in the hand is ridiculously careful. You wouldn't lose THAT much. But to split a low even once with only 1 or 2 other people in the hand, you can lose quite a bit.

Bev, if you've got nuts low, why would'nt you want to raise until the cows come home?? Why just call??

The object of PLO8 is to SCOOP. (win the high and the low)

An A2 in PLO8 on it's own without high straight, or nut flush possibilities on board is not that strong of a hand. Why? Because you run into the very real possibility of splitting the low only. (Re: loose money) Sound familiar? You also have a very real chance of not hitting a low hand at all. (Re: loose money)

On a split pot, a low only, or a high only win in PLO8 is considered a save. Not a win

Only play hands which offer you the opportunity to scoop.


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By 'scoop' you mean Hi AND Low, right?? Can you tell I don't play Omaha much??

Yes


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Divebitch makes a lot of interesting points and many good ones too. IMO, the dumbest bet in poker, is a pre flop raise in Om 08. The ONLY hand you can expect to do it with is A2. You have signalled that you are playing for the low hand, in effect, half the pot and if another player has A2 as well, your playing for a 1/4 pot and setting yourself up for a loss. Watch a full ring cash game for a while and see how many times the pre flop raiser wins the pot. Many players forget that Om, Stud and Razz are drawing games, it's not what you have, it's what you can make. Another mistake you will see, is players raising and reraising when they have flopped the nuts. Trust me, especially in Om, the nuts on the flop is usually the chitz by 7th street.

A save, I love it.

Yes Rick, a scoop is hi and lo. Don't know how much better I could explain but I'll try. It would be fine to reraise for even half the pot, were it assured. But with A2 (since NO ONE throws this away), you often split the pot for little or negative rewards. I will only reraise an A2 low if there are at least 4 people in the pot to build equity (it happens, but the high rarely gets split), and only after the river to be sure I am not counterfeited.

Let's say on the other hand you have a hand like QK45 double-suited. I'm not in it for the low, but it's possible. A27 with flush draw comes, no pairs. My low is not the nuts, but it's close. I also know that anyone IN IT for the low is busted. IF my low is good, I probably won't split it.

Yes, this is an important point.

NEVER pre-flop raise in PLO8.

Also, to get a little deeper, If you have a strong high only hand. It's a better bet (no necessarily a good one) than a good low only hand, because many times there is no low hand.

With either, depending on the table, it may be a proper move to call the blind in an effort see a cheap flop. But, your best friend after that is the fold button.


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Yea,

That is a tough one. To be quartered in Hi Lo is rough. Specially when there is a big pot and you have all your money in it. And, win part of the pot and wind up with less money in your stack.

Omaha Hi lo is my favorite game because it is fun to play. I like the excitment of catching a good hi draw and a good low draw. Thats just me.

However, alway remember that Omaha hi lo differs from Holdem in the fact that it is a post flop game. Not a pre flop game.

So, In Omaha hi lo, a wonderful, killer preflop hand can change to rubbish after the flop.

If you have an A and duce in you hand preflop, you are hoping for two things: three more low cards less than eight, and no Ace or duce. Lots to ask for.

And, some games, you get the maniacs who want to go all in preflop. Then the decision becomes, do I want to risk my stack on the flop.

After the flop, you have already gotten 7/9 ths of your cards. So, if you dont hit by then, dont chase if price is too hi.

Also, if pair exist, most likely someone has a full house; is three to a flush shows in community cards, most likely there is a flush floating around out there, and same for a straitgt.

I have played Omaha Hi lo in the play money games and am at almost a one million dollar ahead. Because, I avoid bad situations and only bet the nuts in most cases.

It is a fun game. Just be cautious and play only good hands.

All the above advice is 2nd hand information from the pros. I am not smart enought to think it up all by my lonely. LMAO.

Good luck. And, just asking will make you a better polker player.

Message from "Super Dunk"

There are exceptions, sometimes the signal is mixed. People misguidedly raising with what I call naked aces (accompanied by a rainbow of crap) for the high. But good point! Funny when the flop renders no low, you can sometimes hear the pin drop.

Because there are lots of situations where you have the nut low but are likely to get quartered. This can happen a lot when there are a bunch of wheel cards on the board. Say you have A23X and the board is A54K3. Here, there are a ton of hands that have you crushed on the high side and a ton that will split the low with you (basically any other had with a 2 and another wheel card -- 3-2, 4-2, 5-2, etc.). And believe me, at the low limits there are a bunch of people who will call a raise to see a flop with trash hands like 2467 rainbow. In this situation, where you're likely betting at half the pot, you need to get to showdown as quickly and cheaply as possible, rather than feeding the high half of the pot that you're likely to get no part of.

A couple things on the high end...

Exactly. And this is one of the VERY few situations where the high gets split. Like if a 10JQA hit. Anyone with a K and any one of those cards wins. It is a rarer split simply due to the nature of the high (flushes & boats - both of which cannot be tied)

You said that better than me, feeding the pot for the hi. The inverse is also true. If you have the absolute nut hi like ace flush, you should raise out the wazoo, making the fights for low (or the poor guy with a set or lower flush) sweeten your half.

There is an exception to this in my rules.

If I have the nut low and there is more than two in the pot, I team up with the high in a raisefest to split the ATM's duckets.

This can end up in a quartered pot for me, but more times than not it doesn't. For me anyway. YMMV

Jus sayin


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This is right... you only mention A2 in yr post, if the other 2 cards are rags A2 is a calling hand at best... remember scooping is the goal, and premium hands involve all 4 cards, not just 2.

Wow, I didnt expect so much response to my measley little uncertain question..lol
TYTYTY It really helps to read such good advice and understand how to approach certain situations. I love Omaha8, but have issues with that low hand, caught up in a raise frenzy chase, bs..just to find out I've quartered<sigh> I know its bound to happen, I just needed some insight on that aspect of the game so I can atleast be more aware of how to avoid it, if at all possible
Once again ty so much for all the insight and advice!
M

This is so true. Most people's exposure to Omaha H/L is a brief outbreak in a horse tournament. Here I commented about how after the first break in a Omaha H/L no limit (egads!!!) freeroll at PS, I was shocked to see VERY few raises. People that know what they're doing know this is true. Pre-floppimg is 'lottery' or 'bingo' at best with Omaha.

http://www.cardschat.com/f46/half-br...-limit-129176/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f46/half-brag-half-comment-omaha-h-l-no-limit-129176/)

Glad you could pick up any pointers, mdafka. I am certainly no expert, but probably a better flair for omaha than anything else.

Cant say I agree totally, if you can isolate someone in position, it is sometimes advisable to raise (in pot limit) (for instance w KKA3 -- if it flops hi u can steal).

True, every situation is different. Also depends on whether it's limit or PL (PL to me is almost like NL). But as said b4, you don't know until the flop whether or not you have a snowball's chance in hell. You are probably not gonna 'isolate' anyone who has a A2 or otherwise attactive low hand. Nor might you isolate anyone with a Q-J-10-9 or otherwise good hand. Thing is, you are raising on a hi, and IF there IS a low, you will have spent a lot on their squabbling only to see a a good low draw, or an ace or flush (even if draw) hit the board. It's nice to isolate. Just be wary on the flop that those who stayed in could have hit.

Yes flops can be real killers in OHL, or OH, much more so than Holdem... as the possibilities are huge and you have to think way ahead with a lot of possible combinations. Owwww... just hurt my head!

But with my KK if Ive isolated and got it heads up with an A2, he has to fold a to hi flop bet (J Q 3 rainbow or etc).

Gee, that's ignorant...

Cuz, you know, exploiting your preflop edge, and limiting the field to 1-2 players/isolating is a terrible idea.

I REPEAT.


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I COULD READ IT THE FIRST TIME!

APPARENTLY NOT!!!

Rookies raise preflop in PLO8.....


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Nearly always true, but with a board of J♠ J♣ K♥ A♥ 2♣:

J♦ K♣ ties J♥ K♦, and of course, everyone loves Jack King off (suit)

You don't know what you're talking about. Look at any high stakes omaha table and you'll see raising and raising preflop every 2-3 pots. Those aren't rookies playing in almost all cases.

Saying never raise preflop is definitely closed-minded and ignorant, in my opinion. A good hand for scooping low and high should most definitely be raised every time, for value and isolation.

And for the record, saying "I REPEAT" to someone's response without giving ANY reasons why you are correct is borderline rude.

[

AMEN to that... all the newbs raise and re raise with A23 in their hand thinking they are going to make the nut low...

It's funny when a pot is raised and 3 high cards come on board and they fold.

just found this article thought it might be helpful
it states some of the same things others have posted here plus a little more . good luck

Thoughts on Omaha-8
Article written by Jennifer Harmann
Provided by Full Tilt Poker

In an earlier tip, I gave advice for playing Stud-8 or Better. For this article, I'll look at the other popular hi/lo split game, Omaha-8 or Better.

In my article on Stud-8, I encouraged players to look for hands that have the possibility of scooping entire pots. The same goes for Omaha-8: whenever possible, you need to position yourself to take every chip from a big pot.
The best Omaha-8 hands have four cards that work together. Something like Ad-Ks-2d-4s is a terrific hand. It gives opportunities for high hands with flushes and straights. It's also likely to make a winning low. When you see a hand with this sort of potential, play it aggressively pre-flop. You also want to play hands like Ad-2c-3h-5s, Ad-2c-3s-8c, and Ah-2d-3c-Qc, but since these hands don't have as many opportunities to make great highs, you may not want to be as aggressive.
Some players overvalue any hand that contains A-2. For example, a hand like Ah-2c-8s-Jd isn't all that great. It's got a chance to win the low half of a pot, but it's unlikely to make a decent high. Another problem is that a hand with A-2 and not much else is in danger of "getting quartered." That means if another player holds A-2, you'll only win half of the low half. Getting quartered in a big Omaha-8 hand isn't much fun.
That warning aside, in very loose Omaha-8 games where six or seven players are seeing every flop, you should play most hands that have A-2. The pots will be large enough to justify playing for only the low half of the pot. But even in a multi-way pot, there's no need to play every hand with A-2 aggressively. When you have little chance of winning a high, you're better off seeing a flop cheaply.
In tight games, where only two or three players are contesting most pots, you can muck a hand like Ah-2c-8s-Jd pre-flop. When the pots are small, you don't want to get involved in any confrontation where you have little chance of making a good high hand.
Many players undervalue hands that contain four high cards. For example, a hand like K-Q-J-T is a solid Omaha-8 hand. Any flop that has two cards above a 9 will give K-Q-J-T a straight draw, two-pair, or a set. On such a flop, there probably won't be a qualifying low, so there's a great chance to scoop. (In Omaha-8, three of the board cards must be 8 or below for anyone to make a low that can take half the pot.) If the flop has three low cards, you can abandon K-Q-J-T, knowing that it's got essentially no chance to win.
Should you find yourself playing a hand with four high cards, don't be seduced by a flop that gives you only top pair. A flop of K-5-2 is not good if you're holding K-Q-J-T. With such a flop, you can be pretty sure that some of your opponents are playing the low end of the deck and are working on powerful lows and straight draws. In fact, in multi-way pots, you should be wary of any single pair or even two-pair. It usually takes a strong hand to take the high-half of a multi-way Omaha-8 pot; a five-card hand - a straight, flush or full house is often necessary to win.
Omaha-8 attracts players who love to play pots. Many draw too frequently and play hands that can only get them in trouble. If you learn to play Omaha-8, you can take advantage of these loose players and turn a solid profit.

I usually see a lot of king jack offs at the table. Yes, I realized my mistake shortly after I posted, but had to leave for the day. But that's not even the example I thought of. This one is probably a little rarer, but let's say flop brings AAA, and 2 of you have QQ.

Okay, you can make a good argument for raising a great scoop hand, like A23K double suited. I don't play high stakes, but would imagine yes, no rookies. So a raise means a little more, and isolation works here. In a freeroll or low-stakes tournment play, raising early on doesn't seem to work that way - deeper into it, yes. But if I miss completely, someone else caught - no c-betting, check/fold.

So say you are a 60/40 to hit the flop better than they did (assume HU for simplicity), would you rather:

1. Win 1BB 60% of the time and lose 1BB 40% of the time (EV = 0.60*1+0.40*-1 = 0.2)
or 2. Win 3BB 60% of the time and lose 3BB 40% of the time (EV = 0.60*3+0.40*-3 = 0.6, not counting fold equity)?

Well I play omaha h/l alot and ppl do get burned by A2 about as much and often as AA but dont get discouraged cause with those hands ur bound to win jus control urself with the bets!

Me again ,I just wanted to say its pretty easy in omaha to know if ur gonna win a portion of the pot ,watch how ppl bet and when this can give ya clues as to what they are holdin..gl buddy!

I'm not a student of poker, so don't even know what EV is. However, I I do understand the math easily. Just not sure how it applies, and if HU would work the same. The math might, but wouldn't the mental aspects or atmosphere (I can't come up with the right words) of a multi-table pot affect gameplay? I mean, don't think sitting there with poker calculating software is the answer. But as always, I could be wrong. Always trying to take into consideration many factors at once with each hand, without quantifying to any degree of exactness. Maybe it's just my style, and maybe it's wrong, but I'm not comfortable in preflop raising anything but the very most optimum hands in Omaha.

This thread is serious lulz.

Keep preachin' James, maybe one day you'll save their souls.

you sir are awsome, coach me please