"No Showdown Wins" will help keep money in your bankroll!!

What does it take to NOT see a showdown and still take the pot.

I went on a search and found a an article that I thought would help with others looking for more information on the "No Showdown Win"

Please include other items that you think a person might need to work on for the orginal goal of winning without a Showdown.


How to Improve Non-Showdown Winnings

By Daniel Skolovy
User rating: 4.96 out of 5 (396 votes)
Yes...... it's another article by Daniel Skolovy, but I think the guy just writes sensably about poker!



Online poker players who use stat tracking tools like Hold'em Manager or Poker Tracker know all about the "redline."

For live players, or players just starting out, "redline" winnings are your non-showdown winnings - hands you win without going all the way to a showdown

Non-showdown winnings can be seen in HEM or PT by going to your graph page and hitting "display showdown winnings." A red line will appear on your graph - that's your non-showdown winnings. Hence the name redline.

Why's this relevant? Lately on the online forums, it's become a bit of a pissing contest among players to have an upward-sloping redline - meaning you win more money than you lose in non-showdown pots.
Does it really matter? Yes and no. Of course you can still be a successful poker player with a negative redline. Different playing styles do different things to your graphs.

Where you run into problems is if your redline looks like a sharp downward slope.

Losing more than you win in non-showdown hands is a common leak that many players have - most notably 2+2 "legend" Fgators.

Fgators posted a now-famous thread in the BBV forum claiming he was the most unlucky player in the world and that because of his perpetual run-bad, he couldn't win at poker.

Fgators was a massive multi-tabler and played a ton of hands. And in that ton of hands, he definitely saw his share of bad beats. But that wasn't why he couldn't win.

His redline was the most depressing sight ever; a sharp, downhill line almost the exact opposite of his showdown winnings.

Because he was losing so much money in non-showdown pots, it almost didn't matter how much money he made at showdown. It could never make up for what he was losing.

What causes a downward sloping redline?
A downward sloping redline is caused by one thing: putting money in the pot and then folding.

That's it. If you're regularly putting money in and folding, your redline will suffer. If you do it often enough, your overall win rate is going to suffer.
Some common ways players regularly hurt their redline:

• Continuation betting too often or in bad spots.
• Having a one-and-done approach to c-betting.
• Playing the out-of-position guessing game too often.
• Calling too often with draws and playing them passively (forcing you to fold when you miss).
• Calling raises with weak made hands only to fold to further action.
• Calling too many three-bets and folding too many flops.
• Check-calling weak hands that are essentially two-pair draws.
• Playing passively in three-bet pots as the aggressor.

All of these examples hurt your redline. The binding theme is putting a bunch of money into the pot only to fold without a fight.


So how do I avoid the dreaded downward-sloping redline?
Almost everybody that has a sharp, downward-sloping redline plays too many tables.

What too many tables is to one person may be completely different to another person. But if you're basically playing your session on auto-pilot, you're playing too many tables - and your non-showdown winnings will suffer.

The easy solution: play fewer tables. Think about each decision you have and weigh your different choices.

Some examples of how you can improve your redline:
Continuation-bet less and continuation-bet in better spots.
Focus on your opponent and his tendencies. If he's a calling station, you should be c-betting a lot less.

C-bet when the board seems to help your range, or if you plan on firing multiple barrels. If you're going to "one-and-done" the board, don't c-bet at all.

Fire more second barrels. Ditch that horrible one-and-done approach to c-betting. Think about your opponent's flop-calling range. Double barrel cards that strengthen your perceived range and hurt your opponent's range.

Fire more third barrels. Again, think about your opponent's calling range and your perceived range. Think about what type of hand he likely has and think about how much heat that hand can stand.

For example: you raise in the cut-off and a tight opponent calls in the big blind. The flop comes T 5 3.

If you choose to c-bet this, you should be firing a ton of turns and rivers because your opponent will rarely have a big hand.

He's going to be three-betting most overpairs preflop and he's going to be peeling one or more streets with hands like 88, 99, and AT. Of those hands, few if any are going to want to call three streets.

If you fire one or two barrels then give up when he bets the river, you're losing a bunch of money without showdown.

Play your draws aggressively. Calling on the flop and the turn only to fold the river when your draw misses leaves money on the table.

When you play a draw aggressively, you have the added bonus of fold equity. This can increase your non-showdown winnings - not hurt them.

Play more hands in position. A simple one. When you're in position, you have the control.

Think about it. If you call a raise out of position, then check/call when you flop a gutter, when he fires the turn you have to fold.

Now think about if you have that same gutter in position. You can win by hitting that gutshot, or you can bet that turn when he checks to you and win it that way.

Bluff and semi bluff more. Just like in the last example, don't just play "fit or fold" poker. Look for opponents that have weak redline disease and punish them.

Find the one-and-done players, float their flop c-bets and take the pot away from them on the turn.


Think, think, think
These are just a few examples of how you can improve your non-showdown winnings.

The main thing you have to do is think. Think about why you're doing what you're doing and ask yourself what you're hoping to accomplish.
If you're just betting for the sake of betting, your whole game is going to suffer.

A word to the wise
If you're a winning poker player, it's best not to obsess over having a positive redline.

If your style is working for you, continue with it. Chances are messing with what works is going to make you less money - not more.

If you're a fledgling poker player, though, and your redline looks like the Dave Murray downhill, you'd best make some changes now - or resign yourself to just being another one of the thousands of rakeback grinders out there.

Easiest way to a great redline; Bet, Bet, Bet and Never Fold!

I have a positive redline (and negative blueline) and my style would best be described as aggro-spewtard-calling station.

All that matters is the dark green line.

Thanks Hillbilly...........

I have read a lot of your posts and followed your comments for a while now. And through it all, I have to say that I really do respect yours and other more experienced online players opinions and insight from CC.

However, I would really like a bit more detail on the subject if you have any. I mean under what conditions do you 'really,' "Bet, Bet, Bet and Never Fold!?"

How do you play against tactics like defensive bets and when do you put the other guy on a hand that's ahead of you? How do you plug your holes to make your red line go in the right direction? Was your redline always in the up position? What do/did you focus on??

Well the never fold stuff was kind of a joke but if you don't fold and bet/raise at every opp you'll be a huge loser with a awesome redline.

I do double/triple barrel a lot, too much actually. At smaller stakes, people fold too much even after committing large portions of their stacks, so I profit from this by just betting until they fold. When they don't fold I lose whole stacks (and the blueline drops). When they do fold the reline goes up.

I've always had a positive redline. At 25nl (50K hands) both my red and blue lines were very positive (5.5BB/100). At 50nl (190K hands) my redline is positive, blue slightly negative, overall positive (3BB/100). At 100nl (50K hands) my redline is positive, blueline negative, overall negative (-2.8BB/100).

So I guess what I'm saying is being overly aggressive and betting til they fold works best when your opponents don't hand read well and get scared when faced with big bets. When your opponents are mildly aware that you have cards too my style breaks down and I start spewing. I'm working on it though.

Thanks Hillbilly........

I seem to have a bigger problem of identifying my opponents.

So I am now composing a list of questions and plan to read them before making any moves for a day or 2 until I actually remember them and can make better decisions without them.

Any suggestions for that?

I run HEM so my questions will more geared to what I should be noticing already, like besides is he tight or aggressive...... I will be asking myself things like, has he been mixing it up, or has he been playing the same standards. Is he one that likes to trap of is he weak? Then I want to make sure I ask.... Are the limping, folding, raising, reraising, checking it down, check-raising, slow playing big hands and playing weak ones, are they over betting or value betting, do they defensive bet, and what are the amounts when they bet in these styles?

I read this article, and initially I didn't think much of it. Since I don't use stat trackers and don't keep track of my "redline", that part I pretty much ignored. But, I did read through the tips, because I never know when I might find a good idea.

I do keep track of my stats within a session, and I noticed the last few sessions that I have been fewer showdowns, but more pots on the turn and river before showdown. It looks like I have started playing my hands more aggressively in the later stages, and it is paying off. Most of the lost showdowns are people who catch their card on the river.

Thanks for the article.

great article thanks for posting it.

Great article and Great read.. Thx for posting this.

Good article! I think it deserves to go to the golden archives.

I enoyed this article. I keep a notebook for my poker stats, how do you like those tracking programs, you mentioned two, which one do you prefer?

I agree with this thought process though. I don't understand how people can see so many hands and not make moves. I think confidence and risk management is a direct reason why they will have a "downward line".

Before it goes to the golden archives we should make sure the OP is actually "Daniel Skolovy" since he is the actual author.
Isn't not giving credit a little plagiaristic?


http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...edline-article

Great info.. I too fire 3 barrels quite often and pick up alot of pots from my aggressive style...

I feel my blue line tends to stay up because when I finally do make hands I usually get paid off big.

already readed this on other site, great to see new info how thinks "pro". Today watched some of wcoop main events and there player with name "djk123" is owning. he had already won 2 events: horse and razz, and chipleader on main event with 10million prize pool, sick how he is playing to get in this ultra mega cash, no wonder why comentators is saying that he is supernovahot player

p.s. all wcoop events can see on http://pokerstars.tv

Thanks cAPSLOCK........

The point of it being an article by Daniel Skolovy was not being hidden by me. I even addressed that point in the original post.
It's not plagiarism because I am not taking credit for the writing and I have asked for additional information regarding the article.

CardsChat is a great place to review information! Poker subjects are discussed in WAY more detail here than any other place on the internet. It is for this reason that I posted it here and asked for more information.

However, just directing people to the original post was something I was under the impression that I could not do. In the past I have entered Hyperlinks to outside articles just to see them removed by the mods. So I didn't do that this time....... I simply wanted more information on the subject as I pointed out in the beginning of the post.

Gotcha... I am a little oversensitive to cut and paste posts and didn't see you cite the author in the middle of your post.

I apologize.

And to be on topic, I personally feel the relationship between SD winnings and NSD winnings is quite interesting, but I would rather be able to shift my playstyle wildly and dynamically based on the circumstances at hand than to cultivate a particular line on a graph.

For example my NSD line might drop a bit if I am sitting at a table full of calling stations and maniacs whereas if I am playing with mostly players with a clue I imagine it should start picking up a little.

I think Stick said it best (I paraphrase) the most important line is the bottom line.

There are more than one way to play this game.

i love that random pic of that asian poker player who co-authored mathematics of poker in the OP

You'd think Bill Chen would be rich enough to buy a comb. His wikipedia ppic is even better.

Who am I to talk about hairstyle though?

i have the most amazing hair/hairstyle ever

everyone luvs dat shyt

Nice Thread I liked the article, makes sense. You will make more possibly bluffing someone out than folding it away.

Great article! Thanks for posting! I admit I give up a little too easily sometimes, but I do try to adjust based on who I'm playing.

I love this comment because it so precisely sums up the potential trouble that might come with being overly concerned about your "redline". As others have pointed out, it's the green that really matters.

-Dave

great article thank you for posting i am gonna learn more about running a program on my computer

hmmm.. actually how would i track my no showdown wins without using a program... those are a pretty penny?

There is an open source poker HUD/tracking program.

No ideas as to it's usability. Let us know if you try it:

http://fpdb.sourceforge.net/

This thread is one of best threads I've read for cash games. Thank you very much. It definitely improved my game although I'm struggling with showdown winnings now.