# Are you a winning freeroll player?

#### zinzir

##### Legend
Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!

N

#### neptun1914

##### Legend
I use freerolls to build my initial bankroll and start playing MTTs. Balance from micro level MTTs is what you should consider to see if you are winning player or not.

#### FastEddie777

##### Rock Star
Winning FR Player

Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!
It depends what you mean by winning? Since freerolls cost you nothing but time, even winning \$2 makes you a winner. Of course winning the Free roll MTT's is satisfying. It's all good.

V

#### valeski 28

##### Legend
Hi mate.Freerolls have been very useful in my bankroll.What´s more,I´ve been able to withdraw money mostly playing them.. on 888.I do love freerolls!

E

#### enzomyn

##### Rock Star
Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!

It is an interesting logic and reasoning to be used, but I would like to take the opportunity to ask you, you commented on the freerolls and I always had this doubt, I have already played these tournaments and I have managed to reach the final table in almost all the frequencies, you have already spiked some?

#### MrPokerVerse

##### Legend
Loyaler
If you ever cased in a freeroll, you are a winning player. Private freerolls are nice because of the smaller fields and helps supplement the bankroll.

#### frank174

##### Legend
Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!
Never ever thought about freerolls in that way pretty cool idea

#### jaymfc

##### R.I.P DJ & Buck
Loyaler
Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!

I didn't do the math, 1 for this two for that, double this and subtract that but it was easy to see I was gonna be a loser
but you said it yourself,
"There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. "
which in my book makes us ALL winners, as a lifelong gambler I have always counted breaking even as a win

how did you do in your evaluation?

#### zinzir

##### Legend
Never ever thought about freerolls in that way pretty cool idea

Thank you for being the first one to understand what I was trying to say there, and not post his own feelings about freerolls in general

The idea is that CC freerolls are quite similar to MTTs with two differences:
1. The buy-in is payed by CC and not the players, even ACR recognizes that and lists them with the Private Tournaments, and not with the Freerolls
2. The buy-in per capita is variable, depending upon the number of entrants in each tournament, since the total amount is fixed.

So, for example, yesterday's ACR/BCP CC Freeroll had 135 entries, so the buy-in payed by CC for each player who registered for the tournament was (100 + 10% x 100) : 135 = 81.5 cents. So since I played yesterday and failed to cash I actually lost the 81.5 cents that CC payed on my behalf.

And if today there are only 100 entrants in the ACR/BCP CC Freeroll and I succeed to min cash for \$1.10, that means I only brake even for that particular tournament since I win \$1.10 and CC payed to ACR on my behalf (100 + 10% x 100) : 100 = \$1.10.

Not only that, but considering my hypothetical performance over the above two freerolls, I am a losing freeroll player, because I won \$1.10 but spent \$1.915 that CC payed on my behalf over the two freerolls.

Without the above adjustments is very hard to honestly assess one's freeroll performance, in my humble opinion.

#### zinzir

##### Legend
how did you do in your evaluation?

I'm a little ahead, but my sample is way smaller than yours.
I have started to make accurate buy-in calculations since the first of June and intend to keep a log, and at the end of the year I will hopefully be able to tell exactly where I stand over a 7 month span.

#### zinzir

##### Legend

It is an interesting logic and reasoning to be used, but I would like to take the opportunity to ask you, you commented on the freerolls and I always had this doubt, I have already played these tournaments and I have managed to reach the final table in almost all the frequencies, you have already spiked some?

If you're asking me if I ever won a freeroll, the answer is yes. If you have reached final table multiple times but never won, it might be helpful to practice by playing SNG tournaments for play money on pokerstars. I think that would benefit your Freeroll final table performance. Good luck!

P

#### pohewa

##### Rock Star
Playing cash tables and buy-in tournaments makes it easy to know if you are a winning player or a losing one, all you have to do is look at what happens to your bankroll.
But how about freerolls? There is no buy-in so the worst you could do is break even, which makes the vast majority of us winning players. We even build bankrolls out of freeroll winnings, and some of us wonder if they are ready for the buy-in tournaments.

Here is an idea about how to assess what kind of player you are using the Cardschat freerolls:
Imagine a buy-in of \$1 for ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls, and \$2 for the BOL/SB ones (I know that for the ACR/BCP it should be a little smaller because the field is 110-140 players, but considering that we don't count the added rake on any of the tournament and for the sake of easy calculation, I think it's a good approximation).
Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Example: If you are a CC FC regular, playing 400 ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls and 100 BOL/SB freerolls a year, you need to make at least \$600 to consider yourself a break even player, and more than \$600 to consider trying buy-in MTTs without negative expectation.

PS: I came up with the above idea trying to assess my own performance, and thought it might be helpful to other fellow CC members. Please let me know what you think, and if you find it to be flawed or inaccurate don't be shy and tell me why. Good luck at the tables!

Man this is super helpful, as a freeroll player this very valuable. I will take this into account moving forward and see how my performance develops. Thank you!

#### Dkerridge14

##### Rock Star
Check your finishing placements. If you are finishing itm consistently then you are winning if not then you aren’t. You just can’t measure an ROI as you aren’t investing anything. You could maybe use a time measurement to find out an ROI/HR

#### mkdrummey

##### Visionary
People used to look at my ROI and use it as ammunition in the chat box. But the joke is on them. I've never spent any of my own money on tournaments. If I have bought into a game it's from freeroll winnings. Same with the money I use to play ring games. So my investment is zero when it comes to money, and as far as it goes with time, I'm still doing what I would normally do online while the game is on, unless I'm near the bubble or getting near the final table.

I have since opted out of the online resources so my "stats" can't be used against me.

Loyaler

#### wolfik1950

##### Rock Star
Captain, I didn't know you were such a mathematician ...​

#### Nafor

##### Legend
Loyaler
I had to read this through couple of times to understand it but still I'm a bit confused.

Double your approximate number of BOL/SB freerolls you've played and add that to the number of ACR/BCP and Intertops freerolls. Subtract the obtained number from the amount on dollars you've won playing those freerolls. If you obtain a positive result you are winning player, a negative result means you are a losing player, and anything close to zero makes you a break even player.

I have to admit that I don't play on those sites, but why the double up?

Non US players who play PS for example will need to approximate the buy in by dividing the prize amount plus 10% by the average number of players (so for a \$100 freeroll with 300 entries, the imaginary buy-in would be 33 cents).

Is the calculation for PS players different and from where does the 10% come from?

#### zinzir

##### Legend
I had to read this through couple of times to understand it but still I'm a bit confused.

I have to admit that I don't play on those sites, but why the double up?

The BOL/SB CC freeroll prize pool is \$200, and the ACR/BCP is \$100, and the respective approximate buy-in would be \$2 for BOL and \$1 for ACR, that's why you double up the number of BOL/SB freerolls.

Is the calculation for PS players different and from where does the 10% come from?
10% expected rake on top of the prize money, that's what you pay when playing a buy-in MTT (for a more accurate calculation).
For more detailed calculation examples, please see my second post in this thread.

#### Nafor

##### Legend
Loyaler
I think you are right. This kind of approach can certainly be a tool when someone needs to make a self assessment. The only thing I would adjust here is the buy-in.

Simply dividing the prize + 10% with the average player pool might give too low and unrealistic figure for the buy-in and skew the big picture. I would rather go with a fixed number that is closer to real life. Maybe 50 cent buy-in for 100 dollar prize and keep it there?

D

#### daniel e hodge

##### Rising Star
Being a winning freeroll player means little if you cant then readjust to regular MTT's. Freerolls can be like proving grounds where you can try out new moves and test theories before using them in bigger games but the strategy to win in freerolls is almost completely different from a buy-in tourney. The difference in player level from \$3-\$5 buys ins is different from \$30-\$100 buy in players. That gap is the same from freeroll to \$3.

Ive found that I can cash with a decent regularity in \$.50-\$3 levels and it goes down from there as the level increases. Find the level where your win %+ payout makes it worth it.

You can be the best freeroll player in the world but youd still be making peanuts compared to being a decent to competent micro-mid level buy in player.

#### zinzir

##### Legend
Simply dividing the prize + 10% with the average player pool might give too low and unrealistic figure for the buy-in and skew the big picture.

The only way the figure would be too low is if you overestimate the average player pool.
I would like to point out to you that estimations are only needed for a retrospective analysis, because it's hard to find out how many players participated in each of the past tournaments if you didn't take and save screenshots.
Prospectively though, you can calculate the exact buy-in for each freeroll you are playing and keep a log. That will provide you accurate numbers and obviate the need for estimation.
I have been calculating buy-ins since the first of this month and thus far I played 7 BOL and ACR CC freerolls and I min cashed 3 times for a total of \$3.30, while the buy-ins that CC payed on my behalf totaled \$8.42, for a loss of \$5.12
So looking back, this week I have clearly been a losing player despite my balance going up \$3.30.
As you said, it's just a simple tool, some people might find it useful (I think it is), others will not.

#### zinzir

##### Legend
Being a winning freeroll player means little if you cant then readjust to regular MTT's. Freerolls can be like proving grounds where you can try out new moves and test theories before using them in bigger games but the strategy to win in freerolls is almost completely different from a buy-in tourney. The difference in player level from \$3-\$5 buys ins is different from \$30-\$100 buy in players. That gap is the same from freeroll to \$3.

Ive found that I can cash with a decent regularity in \$.50-\$3 levels and it goes down from there as the level increases. Find the level where your win %+ payout makes it worth it.

You can be the best freeroll player in the world but youd still be making peanuts compared to being a decent to competent micro-mid level buy in player.

Yes, I agree that once you are a winning freeroll player you need to adjust your play in order to become a winning buy-in MTT player. My tool is designed to assess if you have something to adjust or not, since if you need to be able to beat freerolls first in order to aspire at beating buy-in MTTs.
Being able to build a bankroll out of freerolls does not equal being a winning freeroll player, because one can build a bankroll as a losing freeroll player as well, the only difference is the amount of time required to accomplish that goal.

#### Roller

##### Legend
Winning player in Freerolls calculated by running a spreadsheet with estimated buyins if in fact they were not Freerolls. Subtracting Buyins from Wins and calculate if your a winning player in freerolls.

Sounds like it may take the fun out of things but I guess it would tell you specifically how good a freeroll player you are.

3

#### 300HPGOD

##### Legend
This is an interesting way of looking at things which I hadnt before but I have a big problem with this and that is since it is a freeroll there are X number of payers every tournament that really don't give a damn. They will take monster risks that if they played \$1 or \$2 buy in tournaments they would never take. This, if you are a tight player, will skew your results as your results in freerolls will look way better than they would if you really played \$1 or \$2 buy ins. Its not quite like this but in a way similar to saying I could play ply money tournaments and do the same and count the play money winnings as winnings against a fake buy in amount for that tournament. We all know that play money games play with 90/5 and 80/10 players for their stats meaning you could and should get great results in those if you just play tight, and bet big made hands. I just think to know whether you are a winning player or not you really need to play buy in tournaments and see if you win at them given that your sample size is large enough. Again, I think this is interesting idea and allows you to set goals during freerolls which is always good but I don't think it will really tell you if you are a winning player or not.

#### najisami

##### Visionary
Thank you for being the first one to understand what I was trying to say there, and not post his own feelings about freerolls in general

The idea is that CC freerolls are quite similar to MTTs with two differences:
1. The buy-in is payed by CC and not the players, even ACR recognizes that and lists them with the Private Tournaments, and not with the Freerolls
2. The buy-in per capita is variable, depending upon the number of entrants in each tournament, since the total amount is fixed.

So, for example, yesterday's ACR/BCP CC Freeroll had 135 entries, so the buy-in payed by CC for each player who registered for the tournament was (100 + 10% x 100) : 135 = 81.5 cents. So since I played yesterday and failed to cash I actually lost the 81.5 cents that CC payed on my behalf.

And if today there are only 100 entrants in the ACR/BCP CC Freeroll and I succeed to min cash for \$1.10, that means I only brake even for that particular tournament since I win \$1.10 and CC payed to ACR on my behalf (100 + 10% x 100) : 100 = \$1.10.

Not only that, but considering my hypothetical performance over the above two freerolls, I am a losing freeroll player, because I won \$1.10 but spent \$1.915 that CC payed on my behalf over the two freerolls.

Without the above adjustments is very hard to honestly assess one's freeroll performance, in my humble opinion.

Hey zinzir,
I also think that the way you've looked at this freeroll winning or losing situation is a very interesting one. I admit not having ever thought of it that way. We actually should consider ourselves kind of sponsored by CC since they do put in the buy in for us and when we don't make the money, it should be considered as a loss. Your insight really changed my view about those freerolls. I hope more CC members read your 2 posts, maybe we can enjoy better games if they stop shoving with air thinking that they have nothing invested. Thank you so much and good luck.