Would you fold KK pre-flop if you were on the bubble?

[Jonathan Freake]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

 

[darkvick]

In this case if he was shoving every hand you would call either the JJ but if you follow that line to fold JJ you may fold KK too.

It's complicated, but the 3BB made it.

 

[Joe]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

Rough spot.

JJ is an easier fold, but when it comes to KK it really depends on what your goals are.

The two schools of thought here are 1.) securing ITM and then playing from there or 2.) Playing for the win at the possible expense of bubbling altogether.

When it comes to ICM and we have a middling stack and there is a small stack in play, we really want to avoid going all-in against a covering stack like the plague - for precisely this reason.

Some people will fold everything until the bubble pops and then play from there, others will be willing to risk being the bubble boy in order to maintain or grow their stack in order to compete for the win.

It really depends on the size of the bubble and the player in question.

Personally, I used to secure the min cash and then try to spin it up from there but these days my mentality is more along the line of 'I'm here to win not min' and I'm much more inclined to play strong positions and hands on the bubble to improve my chances of making the FT and winning outright.

Losing AIPF KK < A9 is rather poopy luck at the best of times.

Bubbling KK < A9 AIPF Vs a loose-aggressive/bullying chip leader is far poopier in my opinion...

For me a lot depends on my observations and reads, but with the information given I think you made the right plays folding the JJ and calling the KK, it just wasn't your day.

You could argue that folding the KK too would have got you ITM, and it probably would have, but it's likely that it would have been difficult to take the win depending on how much you bled out before the bubble popped.

Ultimately I feel like it depends on the size of the bubble and our personal goals.

Better luck next time! ❤️

 

[Gallarado777]

I think jack jack should have been played

 

[hilary antonik filho]

Unfortunately, last week I was playing in Euros and only 4 won, I received AA and went to the All-inn, (no one forced me, I was stupid) I also finished fifth, now I give up on any pair or suited connectors, in my opinion that It's anxiety and greed on my part

 

[Cooking]

I think it would depends of how many BB did you have. If your chip stack was comfortable, I would fold and wait for 3BB player leaves the game. But if I also had < 10 BB, I would call with the KK.

 

[Gollox]

If I would normally do it until I broke the bubble unless it is chip leader

 

[chicomarvo]

I think jacks you can fold, but kings in this situation is very difficult to fold. Only if you have a really confort stack and can wait the player with 3BB i think you can fold without a problem waiting for play hands after the bubble.

 

[jonaselloco]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

Hello brother
Well this same question that you ask is one of the 3 questions that I ask Daniel Negreanu on the anniversary of cardschat
I agree with all the opinions of the colleagues and I agree a lot with the opinion of Tracid
I think the decision to fold with JJ in a bubble is acceptable, but after having KK it is very difficult to fold.
After having read a very good article about limping in the game, I consider that having KK in an UTG or middle position, you always have to do at least one more mini raise considering that you have the chip leader on the table that is systematically doing all in. aggressively to all who are in the bubble. This is a way of saying "if you want to win go forward and don't speculate by paying just to see a flop" and if you think about it a bit it's not bad that he played like this even though A9 isn't much of a hand trustworthy to go all in because he is really acting psychologically on his opponents having a very good position and saying "here until the bubble passes I command the table"
Just a humble advice, if you are going to go in UTG or middle positions opening the game, never limp, depending on the cards you have minimally a raise or even a 3 bet, that way the villain will already think a little about whether he will or he will not go all in because he knows that you are in the bubble and that if you are going to open a hand it is because you really have cards to play it. In these positions to limp because you are on the bubble you prefer to fold into the ITM.
Now if you limp in general thinking that the one who dominates the board is that you have some for example middle pair 66, 77, or a JQ in suite or hands to see if I'm lucky, then they don't even need A9 to go there all in, they can go all in with 23 and you'll still fold for the bubble and walk into the prize.
As always these decisions are very difficult to make. What I do?? Do I double my chips or leave without getting paid??? Whatever decision you make is well taken, and as one of our colleagues A9 said against KK and I sincerely beat you, he had the luck that accompanies the champion hahahaha it happens to us many times
A big hug from Algarrobo - argentina

 

[Acechador]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

Well, I've realized that when those kinds of hands come up, being you who should call and having a top pair like KK, it's better to wait a little while (15 or 10 seconds) and make the call.
When I've done that, I usually get another card that completes three of a kind or the other player fails to connect any pair.
Try it next time and let me know.

 

[rock0001]

how many chips you had left before calling with kings? i think its reasonable to shove with kings, specially if you were not also deep stacked ( 50 bb or more), even if we take into account icm i think its still a pretty close decision so i think you have made the right call.

 

[rdwr33]

certainly not. Unfortunately, I've quit a few times, but I never give up. and I really enjoy playing KK.

 

[Joe]

I think jack jack should have been played

Totally agree based on probability, shown cards in the following hand and how the player was playing alone that it's likely the JJ hand would have won and then might have been enough to insulate against the practically inevitable KK hand loss but hindsight is 20:20...

 

[ammytyagi]

I guess it depends on your stack size, if you are short stack then it is better to call otherwise I would have folded.

 

[Phyrrura]

It depends on a lot of things. If it's a satellite, I'm have a nice stack to win the ticket, and a really tight player shoves, I would problably fold. Multiway pots with already 3 players going all in? If it's already ITM I may fold sometines, it depends on the read.

 

[yuriko oyama]

I don't know if I would fold either, but the icm is more important than the cards in the hand, since we play for money and not for fame.
It's just my opinion.

 

[yuriko oyama]

regardless of the cards, who was the winner was the friend who had patience with 3bb, I've seen a lot happen online honestly.
poker also requires a lot of patience.

 

[eetenor]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

The most important piece of data is missing what does the top pay- if it is 30-40-50-60 than we can play like a satty and fold 100% vs the big stack to get the money -if however there is 200 for first than we play both JJ and KK vs the shove.

 

[fryderyk]

I would play with JJ already. You never know what your opponent's card is, and you take the risk. I do not have much fond memories of the final table where I was eliminated from the tournament with AA in a similar way, I learned that it was only a couple, but when asked if I would play similar again, the answer is yes.

 

[Andyreas]

You could argue that folding the KK too would have got you ITM, and it probably would have, but it's likely that it would have been difficult to take the win depending on how much you bled out before the bubble popped.

I do not want to repeat what Tracid said, just add one more thought to this to make you potentially feel better:
Imagine you folded the KK and Mr. Short doubled up once or maybe even twice, then you'd probably be frustrated about your folds earlier.

I usually try to decide occasion by occasion on the bubble if it's worth folding most hands to secure ITM or to try to gain as much as chips as possible due to most people tightening up.

 

[FF2586]

Hi,
I think it depends on the nature of the tournament. If it is a sattelite, and all 4 players get the same prize once ITM you should indeed fold anything all in since there's a 3bb player on the bubbule.
If you are playing a regular tournament, you shouldn't fold big pairs on the bubble, you should play for the win.
That's my opinion.
Gl at the tables.

 

[Mauricio Perrotta]

They are very particular decisions, when there are pairs at the final tables it is difficult to throw them away

 

[thedarkman]

Last night in my poker game there were 5 players left and top 4 got cash, starting at 30$ for 4th. I was playing it smart as 1 of the 5 players only had 3BB left and was folding everything to try and reach the money. the chip leader went all-in after I had limped with JJ causing everyone to fold including me, I thought I was being super cheap/smart to try and get in the money. But in the very next hand I was dealt KK and again was forced all-in by the chip leader, I wasn't good enough to fold again so I called and he had A9 off suit and hit the ace to take me out in 5th place.
It was very unfortunate do you guys think I should have folded the JJ and the KK or neither of them?
I personally think this was just very shitty luck.

The last time I had kings very close to the bubble, I went all-in. Some muppet big stack called with 7s and flopped a set. I would say in your case if you were 90% + sure you would cash if you folded, then a fold would have been painful but profitable. After that you could let rip a bit.

 

[Comboss599]

Maybe that strange but if i have KK on hand i hit almost always an ace on the flop which my opponents has. So i use to play KK carefully or i fold this hand preflop.

 

[fundiver199]

It depends on all the stack sizes including your own, and the payout structure. But most likely neither JJ or KK was a fold preflop. If you had won the hand, maybe you would have become the new chip leader with a high chance to win or take second place rather than just min-cash. Except for a satellite tournament the goal is not to just cash. The goal is to maximize EV, which you almost certainly did by calling with KK but not by folding with JJ.