I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

In tournaments, the most tasty prizes at the final table are what all tournament players want.

Winning in cash is a small but constant income.
And to win the tournament is how to win the lottery.

Originally Posted by bablo

In tournaments, the most tasty prizes at the final table are what all tournament players want.

Exactly, what was the prize money for say, 3rd place in that tournament?

And also, some people prefer tournaments over cash table, feel more comfortable, and better suited for them. Same goes for SnGs, turbo tournaments, turbo SnGs... same goes for regular cash tables, zoom (or speed or any other name depending on the room).

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

YOU have to play to win in all only way to come out with a decent amount of cash when the bubble is near im pushing alot and stealing cause people are just trying to make it too the money i play to win it all you should too!!!!!

Originally Posted by james bright

YOU have to play to win in all only way to come out with a decent amount of cash when the bubble is near im pushing alot and stealing cause people are just trying to make it too the money i play to win it all you should too!!!!!

How's that working for you James? You're right in that the only real money seems to be in the top three places. Is shoving and stealing near the bubble getting you there in the big tournaments? I'd like to follow you. Let me know your screen name and what big tournaments you're playing in.

Tournaments are usually softer IMO, the game theory on it is a bit more sound, the bad players inflate the prize pool quite a lot and its generally fun for people who don't shy away from the attrition part of the game. The only real negative thing is most days you will probably lose money playing a bunch of tournaments but you don't need to go on a deep run very often to make up for it and winning a tournament can turn around your week/month.

When De-programming from a bad run of cards at cash/heads up poker, a tourney is a welcome break; it's not all riding on each and every hand. At least You know what you will lose.

I love tourneys. My best tourney win was back in like 2009? I think that is when it was. I did a $2.75 buy in tourney no rebuys and came in 1st with over 3,000 people in it at Pokerstars. I won a little over $1,200 for that tourney and it took a little over 8 hours to play.

Tourneys can be a lot of fun and you can get a lot of hands in for a very minimal cost. You might even be able to win something out of it too. They have the Main Event in the WSOP that if you win that you are a millionaire. Actually if you make the final table you would be a millionaire.

The game cache is an everyday job in the pursuit of a gradual accumulation of money.
Tournaments are a kind of attempt to disrupt the jackpot at one point. The higher the rate, the larger the jackpot.

the point of the tournaments are the good prizes, if the tournament guarantees good prizes it is worth the risk, you also have to leave the comfort zone, help to learn from other players, I also think that a person who plays cash, tournament, sng, they are more complete players

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

We don't just play one tournament like you did.

Successful tournament players who play for a living play a lot of tournies and get cashes way bigger than yours.

You could have played cash games for the same length of time and had the same result.

I actually prefer tournament poker over cash games. At one time of my life I was very active in sports and played to be the best for the thrill of it. I was just very competitive. Tournament poker allows me to continue to play for the thrill of winning the event and satisfies my competitive spirit. While I can understand why is maybe more profitable to play cash and not to play for $2.00 an hour, I just don't get the same exciting thrill playing cash. Its just an personal preference.

Because there is a ton of value 8n most tournaments. Play higher buy ins and try KO tourneys.

Originally Posted by dakota-xx

We don't just play one tournament like you did.

Successful tournament players who play for a living play a lot of tournies and get cashes way bigger than yours.

You could have played cash games for the same length of time and had the same result.

Interesting comparison. Definitely not my experience.

You obviously have greater tournament experience that I do Debi. I've watched some pros play online tournaments (Stars identifies them as such) and it usually comes down to a short stack pre-flop shove with an unlikely Ax that (from what I've seen) they usually lose. Granted I haven't watched a lot of them. Maybe they win more than they lose over say a thousand tournaments.

Obviously they've got to be making money at it though. I just don't see how when making it to the top 1% only nets you 6 times your buy-in and takes 6 1/2 hours.

Originally Posted by Yonip17

I played before satellites for$215 super sunday at pokerstar...turning 1.10 to 22. then 22 to $215. then I was busted at around 600 placed. cashed $350+. I played that game after my 12hrs work. The tournament already running 7 hours. and 2 hours more I have to go to work again. Thats terrible... So tired and exhausted...

This is fun? Mind, in the end you did make a nice return on your $1.10 investment. ** not accounting for how much time you spent playing both sats **

However, if you'd bought in for full price that would have netted you $135/7hrs? = $19 per hour barring any bad beats.

Originally Posted by patfreed

Because there is a ton of value 8n most tournaments. Play higher buy ins and try KO tourneys.

Satting in is a slightly more profitable way to play tournaments. I satted in to the Sunday Storm for $1.10 and after 3 1/2 hours I took away $12.85. That's a net of $11.75 or $3.35 per hour.

But at full price I would have netted $12.85 - $5.5 (1/2 price day) = $7.35/3.5 hrs = $2.10 per hour.

Originally Posted by akmost

To be honest if you won an entry and you can unregister for the target tournament then you will be able to use those T$ (tournament money) for playing whatever you want!!!

I've done this a lot! The .33 sats to the Sunday Storm are pretty easy to win and a real money maker when you unregister before the tournament. But then that's a cash player mentality.

Originally Posted by 1AMBOWLINGNINJA

I love tourneys. My best tourney win was back in like 2009? I think that is when it was. I did a $2.75 buy in tourney no rebuys and came in 1st with over 3,000 people in it at Pokerstars. I won a little over $1,200 for that tourney and it took a little over 8 hours to play.

Tourneys can be a lot of fun and you can get a lot of hands in for a very minimal cost. You might even be able to win something out of it too. They have the Main Event in the WSOP that if you win that you are a millionaire. Actually if you make the final table you would be a millionaire.

That's the gold at the end of the rainbow I guess. Every once in a (long) while, win big. Makes it all worthwhile.

Originally Posted by MattRyder

Interesting comparison. Definitely not my experience.

You obviously have greater tournament experience that I do Debi. I've watched some pros play online tournaments (Stars identifies them as such) and it usually comes down to a short stack pre-flop shove with an unlikely Ax that (from what I've seen) they usually lose. Granted I haven't watched a lot of them. Maybe they win more than they lose over say a thousand tournaments.

Obviously they've got to be making money at it though. I just don't see how when making it to the top 1% only nets you 6 times your buy-in and takes 6 1/2 hours.

Granted there is a lot of variance in tournaments - but that is why you have to look at your results long term versus short term.

When I played online I would have a huge cash ($5kish) once in a while - and those compensated for all of the tiny wins in between. Yep - the big wins were a huge investment of time - and I loved every minute of them.

Cash games bore me silly - can never stay at a table long enough to see if I could win long term in those.

Originally Posted by dakota-xx

Granted there is a lot of variance in tournaments - but that is why you have to look at your results long term versus short term.

When I played online I would have a huge cash ($5kish) once in a while - and those compensated for all of the tiny wins in between. Yep - the big wins were a huge investment of time - and I loved every minute of them.

Cash games bore me silly - can never stay at a table long enough to see if I could win long term in those.

That's why I multi-table at the lower stakes. For the really big stakes I would limit myself to one or more likely two tables simply because so much depends on knowing the idiosyncrasies of each individual player. If you prefer cash (which I do) there's a much greater likelihood of more frequent big wins, definitely enough (IMHO) to compensate for any boredom that you might experience.

But I'll continue giving tourneys a try. I just seem to run into a lot of bad luck when I play aggressively, and hours of sitting around when I play tight but carefully. Just lost one using the aggressive approach w/ JJ vs AK and A9. The odds were well in my favor, but the luck wasn't. When that happens at a cash table I just sigh (sometimes I skip the sigh), auto-reload and I'm off to the next hand instantly. In a tournament that might happen after investing hours of thoughtful play.

Originally Posted by dakota-xx

Granted there is a lot of variance in tournaments - but that is why you have to look at your results long term versus short term.

When I played online I would have a huge cash ($5kish) once in a while - and those compensated for all of the tiny wins in between. Yep - the big wins were a huge investment of time - and I loved every minute of them.

Cash games bore me silly - can never stay at a table long enough to see if I could win long term in those.

BTW Debi. I know you play a fair bit and have done so for years. Just curious - have you calculated how much you net per hour overall (live, online, cash & tourneys) and would you care to share?

Tournament poker is low risk high reward. Versus Cash games which are high risk low reward. And also in tournaments everyone has random seats. In Cash games people could be working together at the table.

I prefer MTT because they are a safe bet and it is hard to cheat in MTT.

I like both but I prefer tournaments when you have a bankroll built up. I always seem to lose my bankroll in Cash games when it is built up. I just don't trust the cash games too much.

I prefer tournaments if you are lucky enough and play right you can make nice $$$, like me just now finished first in the CC freeroll and made $20 profit it takes risk but that's poker. You have to be willing to die to win like the pros say. Good luck and best wishes to you at the tables!

You get good practice by playing tournaments. That may come in handy someday when you take your chances at a bigger buy in tournament. If you love poker, any win is a good win. Next time you may make it to the final table and a time after that you might win the whole thing.

It's such a complicated question. Why does someone prefer a banana over an apple? Everyone has their own taste. Some people like it for the competition. There is a winner. A podium of final table players. Some people like playing for 4-6 hours on $2 chasing the top prize of 200 BIs. I feel much more gratified when I bink a tourney over winning a massive pot in a cash game. I personally enjoy playing both. Poker isn't my job tough.

Winning the tournament will bring much more money than you can win on the cash tables.

the biggest disadvantage when playing a tournament is of course the time. if the goal is reached, it justifies all the effort, and if not, it's in a bad mood and curse the world. spending 2-3 hours and getting nothing in return is the most unpleasant experience in any event. I try to play turbo tournaments and with a small field, time limit tournaments for me is the only kind I'm willing to spend my savings on. and of course spin and go.

In any tournament the good prize is only in the final table, 1º-5º are the best prizes

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

This answer is meant to be taken in the pure basic reason why one would elect to play in Tournaments over Cash games.
Reason: You can only lose the amount of a buy-in, unlike cash games, where you could, and at times, can lose everything.

I guess it always depends at what stakes you play, playing 2,20 of course you wont make much money unless final table scores, and even then, you probably looking for Top 5 or so.

Not that question again!Let people play whatever they want and if they are weak and you have an edge exploit them in any variation.

- The biggest drawback of playing MTTs is that you must dedicate many hours for your deep runs.
- In cash games how many buy ins can you win? By shipping a big tournament you can win 150x times the initial buy in or a greater amount than that!
- In cash game if you have an edge you can see its impact in your bankroll instantly plus you can stop your session whenever you want.
- Good cash games players IMHO are better than the average MTT player because the real brainstorm is postflop. Even a baby can shove with AK with 10bbs in a MTT.

Play whatever you want and have fun.

Many do not come for a profit on poker. Just play, pass the time and get a dose of adrenaline. Therefore, they try not to spend money on the game.

Playing tournaments because it's fun and has a great chance of winning.

For me it is the challenge of trying to move up the leader board and reaching the final table ,where all the good cashes are . I get bored on cash tables and when I get bored I find myself making mistakes because of impatience .

When talking about lower stakes you're not going to get the return on invested time you want if you have a bankroll. These steps are made to build a bankroll then play higher stakes and get a better return on time invested.

I am a tournament player. Your thread and your questions, makes me want to try cash games.

I think tournaments have more variance as you described but are more safe to the money you could lose. I can easily lose my bankroll to cash games but with tournaments just by playing abc, and nitty, waiting for hands while other people bust, I can make money positions more often. And of course if I get lucky, I could make some nice money that I dont know how easy is to make lets say 300€ with 50 cents in cash games.

Let's say that tournaments are a calculated risk. In cash you can lose all your money in only one poorly played hand, which does not happen in a tournament. And we have cheap tournaments that can give you a very generous payoff, just look. In PS have the spin n'go that gives fast return if you do not want to play 7 / 8h

A number of folks have said above that you risk losing your entire bankroll in cash games. That will only happen if you set rebuy to automatic and play poorly and don't set limits for yourself. You don't have to set rebuy to auto. You can top up and/or rebuy if necessary manually, so you decide how much you risk. If you go in to a cash game with the mindset that you will only allow yourself to lose X number of buy-ins (yes cash games have buy-ins too), and stick to your plan, then that is all you lose, period.

Automatic topping up to the maximum buy-in every hand that you are down is a good strategy but NOT necessary.

Winning poker is in large part about discipline. Cash games are actually pretty straightforward if you play disciplined and manage your bankroll in a disciplined fashion.

Variance is a a factor, but unlike tournaments where the blinds are constantly rising, you should never feel pressured to play a hand that you don't feel right about in a cash game. And if you don't like the table you are at (e.g., too many maniacs, too many pros, bad kharma, etc.) then you just change tables. You can't do that in a tournament.

So help me out here, just trying to understand. My perspective here is live play - i am a 100% tournament player. The main reasons for sticking with tournament play is the known buyin (potential loss) and there is a bit of a fear of the unknown by shifting to cash games. Call it intimidation if you will. In my local area (live), i know that if i suddenly show up at a cash table, the regulars will likely swarm and eat me alive. There could be collusion (real or imagined) as well.

I feel that in a tournament, the effects i mentioned would be minimized, if not eliminated. Obviously, why would i be intimidated in a cash game, but not in a tournament?? probably just the unknown. In my live tournaments I have cashed 18.2% of the time, which i think is fairly good (yeah i know it is about the money won, not the cash % that matters). I have tried cash game formats at low stakes on-line, but I don't believe this is indicative of the real world.

So given this flawed mindset I have, how would you suggest i try the shift from tourney to cash? I would like to give it a shot, based on everything i have heard. It seems that if i go in with a "if i lose my buy-in, i am leaving" mentality, then i am only going to be trying to play a tournament at a cash table, and this probably won't work. Should i play limit or no-limit? Again, limit has a much different strategy than no-limit (or even spread limit). In limit, it seems like you can't afford to string a bunch of losing hands together, because in limit, the pot will only be so big, and you will have a tough time making it back.

So, there i go, talking myself out of cash games again....

I've had good players tell me I should focus on tournaments. I am a mediocre to fairly good player (on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate myself at about six). The vast majority of my poker talent is in math (I've been nicknamed 'Rain Man').

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.......

Hi)
I agree completely ...)))
sit at the table for several hours and win a prize - not enough money for a sandwich ...)))
I'm playing for fun ..)) nerves are calming ...)) and no matter what the prize)))

To me tournaments just seem more exciting than the abc of cash. Ok I have hardly played much cash but i find after about an hour, and still breaking even, out of sheer boredom I return to Tournament. I like the progressive blinds, the amount of players, the chance to win more than I could earn in an hour..day..year. The thrill of getting on the final table, bring it on.

I just play tournaments just because i don't have enough control of my bank on cash games, i just lose all my bank in less than an hour

In tournaments I feel more safe to play and I try hard to get at least my money back at the prize pool

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

Firstly you played 2,2$ buyin tournament (without bounty prizes*KO what means u recive for each eliminated player cash can be even more then the 12th place for one player )*,without Rebuy-addon what usually means the pot prize is low, and its micro buyin) iNthink about it this way if u buying zoom game 0,50/1 this is 50$ per table right now imagine what would u win for such mtt KO buying (55$)were are not thath many players and they playing not such bingo way as 2,2$ what would be then u win ?

Originally Posted by MattRyder

How's that working for you James? You're right in that the only real money seems to be in the top three places. Is shoving and stealing near the bubble getting you there in the big tournaments? I'd like to follow you. Let me know your screen name and what big tournaments you're playing in.

James *this u can do at those 2,2$ buyins ^^

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

Thing about tournaments is that they actually have better ROI in my opinion.
Let's say you play 2NL cash game (2$ buy-in) and have a 10BB/hour winrate, which is considered to be exceptionally good winrate, you earn 20cents every hour. That means you need to play for 60 hours to win 12$ as oppose to 6hours in a tournament with the same buy in.

My best guess, is that you play higher stakes cash games and when you win, it is significant as oppose to what you won in that 2.2$ buy in tournament. Use the same buy in in cash games and tournaments, and ROI should be better if you are at the same skill level for both cash games and tournaments.

Cash games are hard work (hand range, pot odds) and tournaments are fun, thrill and exitement (beginning, ITM bubble, FT bubble and FT.
But above all I consider as well the calculated risk as the most important reason to play MTT instead of cash games. You get ITm, you get your buy-in back and have another chance the next day/week/tournament...

To be profitable in tournaments we have to play 4 or more screens. Playing 8 screens in tournaments for $ 2.20 out of a total of $ 17.60. there are $ 2.2 tournaments out of 1,200 entrants who pay $ 32 if they arrive at the final table. suppose you get two final tables to win $ 64 - $ 17.60 buy-in $ 46.4. and the chance at the final tables to win a 3 or 4 place are very considerable and also because.

Originally Posted by HK_47

Tournaments are usually softer IMO, the game theory on it is a bit more sound, the bad players inflate the prize pool quite a lot and its generally fun for people who don't shy away from the attrition part of the game. The only real negative thing is most days you will probably lose money playing a bunch of tournaments but you don't need to go on a deep run very often to make up for it and winning a tournament can turn around your week/month.

100% agree! ... tournaments are definitely softer (not just in your opinion).

I play tournaments for training to continue to play in live tournaments. Live poker of course different, but the experience will still be

Originally Posted by MattRyder

I usually play cash games preferring Zoom cash tables at Stars.

Yesterday for a change I decided to play a tournament. It was a $2.20 buy-in that eventually had 1156 players registered (no rebuy, no re-entry, no add-on) with a total prize pool of $2,265. I played tight and got to 13th place after 6 1/2 hours. I won $14.16 which minus my $2.20 buy-in netted me $12. That's less than $2/hr.

And I was lucky enough to win most of the hands that I entered, other than the last one of course. No bad beats for a change. That's very unusual.

My question - what's the point? That's probably less than minimum wage in China.

So, other than the personal challenge, why do people play online tournaments (other than CC freerolls)? How many of the 249,550 CC members actually make more money at it than they would flipping burgers at McDonalds?

First there’s discipline....

Think of it in the case of what else you could have been doing with your bankroll during that 6 1/2 hours. For that whole entire 6 1/2 hours the only amount that was at risk was $2.20. Where as at a cash game your entire Bankroll could be at risk....

Practice....

We all know the place we want to end up eventually is millionaires or at least a comfortable lifestyle. How else do you attain that in poker other than tournaments. You can’t cash game your way into it. You’ll need to add tournaments to your resume to get to Daniel Negreanu status.

Payout.....

Simply put, you entered the wrong tournament! I’ve been there. I entered a tournament where I got 12 place and there were no payouts. It really depends on the tournament. I entered to pay $10 buy-in tournament. Got second place and won $147. Entered another $10 buy-in the next day, got fifth place and made $83. Remember the bigger the buyin the bigger the payout.

Good luck! 😉

Some people are cash players, some are tournament players, and some play both. I know some of all types. I myself play both and prefer tournaments over cash but only if the payouts are worth my time. I play a lot of live tournaments and the pay outs seem to pay more than online pays because you usually have a smaller playing field in live tournaments.

I find the tournaments too much fun, you can play more aggressively because in cash, playing very aggressive is a little bit dangerous .. Also, for people who are learning or starting in this world of poker, it is more profitable to play a 5-hour tournament than playing 5 hours in cash .. it seems to me that playing cash is very boring ... people literally kill themselves for 1 dollar.

I think what many of us look for in the tournaments is to win and get the highest prize, of course you have to work hard to get it especially if it is a tournament where there are many players, it will be many hours of games but winning is satisfactory