# What is the ideal raise size on the preflop?

#### BelFish

##### Legend
Loyaler
I think the optimal variant from the EV point of view should be very beautiful in the mathematical sense. Thus, most likely these are the numbers E and PI, respectively, for the early and late positions.
EXP=2.72
PI=3.14
This - ideal

"What is the ideal raise size on the preflop?"
Nice! I do 2,61 EP 3,61 LP 4,61 with 2 limps infront.

I might change to your numbers though.
Care to elaborate a bit more on the reasoning?

In general, a good sizing. But to make it ideal, it is better to add 0.01 BB to these numbers. Then we get a raise more than the pot exactly by the number FI (the number of the "golden mean")
FI=1.618 ~ 1.62
The law of the "golden section" should also apply in poker ))

P.S. In many mathematical laws and formulas, these numbers "pop up".
The ideal is the ideal...

Last edited:
Joe

#### GRIN281289

##### Legend
Bronze Level
Depends on the cards in hand and the players at the table. 2 bb is the optimal average option

#### rastapapolos

##### Rock Star
Bronze Level
I think if the stacks are deep and with a premium hand like TT+ we should put more chips in the middle like around x3 to construct a big pot. But with stack sizes around 20-30 bb a min-raise is ok.

#### Tigroslav

##### Rock Star
Bronze Level
In general, a good sizing. But to make it ideal, it is better to add 0.01 BB to these numbers. Then we get a raise more than the pot exactly by the number FI (the number of the "golden mean")
FI=1.618 ~ 1.62
The law of the "golden section" should also apply in poker ))

P.S. In many mathematical laws and formulas, these numbers "pop up".
The ideal is the ideal...

Yeah thats my idea but rounded it down instead of up xD

N

#### Niykk

##### Visionary
Bronze Level
Depends. 50-75% the pot size if you play for value is what I'm thinking about.

#### terryk

##### TheCanuckwithalltheluck
Bronze Level
Don't over-think it,,,,2.2 is fine. :deal:

#### sincos

##### Visionary
Platinum Level
I think it's 3.5x

#### afecho

##### Rock Star
Bronze Level
There are so many other factors to consider but generally speaking, I prefer a 3BB raise with that hand in order to weed out limpers who might connect with a a straight or flush later with very weak cards. I can always walk away after my bet if needed but I’ve been burned too many times slow playing those high pair hands in the past so always raise just enough to try to play against someone else who also has something decent, or make everyone who doesn’t have anything worthy of playing in their hand fold.

K

#### karylpretty

##### Enthusiast
Silver Level
I have different raise size on Preflop

2bb / 2.1bb / 2.2bb

I usually use 2bb whenever i'm at early position such as UTG/UTG+1/UTG+2
2.1 is when i'm opening MP
I then use 2.2bb in a BVB situation

L

#### LetterRip

##### Rock Star
Bronze Level
I would like to know your opinion on the ideal raise on the preflop with a strong hand (TT and above), and regardless of position. I prefer a 2 or 2.2 BB myself, how would you go about it?

Your sizing should be consistent and based on effective stacks (2.5 BB deeper stacks - 60BB+, 2-2.2 BB shallower stacks) and position (out of position add 1 BB) and number of limpers (1-2BB per limper) unless you are targeting a bad player who calls too much and is fairly oblivious to raise size, in which case you should raise as large as they will call with, usually at least 5x, but many will call up to10x.

G

#### GIB

##### Rock Star
Silver Level
I play MTT. I use 2.2BB very often. Sometimes I also use an increased sizing of 3-4BB, in the case when my stack, my position at the table and the opponent is suitable for such tactics.

#### quick

##### Legend
Silver Level
Great thread. I used to always do around 3-4 bb open raise preflop in online tournies (maybe 4 early on then 3 as stages progress).

However I noticed a lot of players , esp on main sites I play on bet 2 to 2.5 and more comically many bet as tiny as the site bet slider allows . It’s my understanding more modern strategies at high level tournies is smaller open raise bets but for most players I think it seems like a mistake as many will insta call anything close to or less than a min raise.

Lately I’ve been working with around a 2.8bb open raise , will add a little to it if limpers . And In late stages will go as low as a min raise depending on how the table is playing. All tournies have antes almost immediately that I play .

Problem with bigger opening raises is it can really drain your stack , it’s amazing how just a small reduction of a fraction of a bb can help maintain a stack and keep pots manageable when need arises.

Again a lot of players on sites I play on either massively over bet preflop or bet comically small.

I’ve considered going lower like 2.6.

Also important to keep the chosen size consistent throughout the tourney as if you start changing the sizes without limper increases it can show strength of your hand.

#### Pavel1203733

##### Visionary
Bronze Level
I think 2.5-3 bb is a good size if i have good cards and it's not the bluff.

D

#### dompoker

##### Visionary
Platinum Level
It depends on how many chips you have, what hand you have, you must protect a good preflop hand.

##### Legend
Loyaler
you open it as standard with 2.5 or 3 bb and everything works fine in different situations, but on average 2.5 bb is enough

#### kitchy65

##### Visionary
Bronze Level
I would like to know your opinion on the ideal raise on the preflop with a strong hand (TT and above), and regardless of position. I prefer a 2 or 2.2 BB myself, how would you go about it?
3 BB on low ante is silly, you chase nobody away from the pot.

Go by your stack size early in tourney. If you start with 3000 chips and are opening...raise at least 200 with ante at 15/30 , 300 at 30/60.
If you're dealt a good hand, go by how many limpers there are and increase accordingly.

If you are sat there with QQ,KK,AA only betting out a few hundred makes no sense, consider shoving. Or you'll have people calling you with K8.

#### PINOY

##### Visionary
Bronze Level
While still deep without ante 3-5 BB but with ante 2.5-3BB

#### BelFish

##### Legend
Loyaler
While still deep without ante 3-5 BB but with ante 2.5-3BB
Now, almost from the first levels, ante is introduced in almost all tournaments...

But in general, why do you offer a smaller raise size when adding an ante? It turns out that for a smaller initial pot we raise more, and for a larger pot we raise less, giving good odds to opponents. The opposite is more logical.

Rather, you should raise less when the stacks get smaller and there is no relation to the antes...

M

#### moularaki

##### Visionary
Bronze Level
in early stages is 4 times the BB
in the late stages double is enough

R

#### Recreationalplayer

##### Visionary
Platinum Level
3x for 3Bet and 2.3 - 2.5x for 4 betting.

#### TeUnit

##### Legend
Loyaler
I like to vary my sizing based on stack depth, the villan, and the icm.

#### Kinalha

##### Legend
Platinum Level
I would like to know your opinion on the ideal raise on the preflop with a strong hand (TT and above), and regardless of position. I prefer a 2 or 2.2 BB myself, how would you go about it?
it depends on how much your opponents are paying to see the flop, sometimes you will open 2x 3 hands in a row and you will not find any calls, in the same way that you will open 3x 3.5x and find two, three players wanting to see the flop

#### Dobbler1

##### Rock Star
Bronze Level
I am generally of the school that you shouldn't vary your opening bet size unless the stack sizes change. I play mostly cash for 100BB or more, and so all things being equal, I open for 2.5BB. I have been experimenting with changes to this in specific situations. In tables that are generally loose, especially loose and passive (I play 6max, so with 3-4 players with VPIPs over 30), I am now changing my standard opening to 3BB, and might bump it up to 4BB. I can't imagine that'll change their calling/3betting range, but over many iterations it should make me more profitable (assuming I am not dramatically outplayed post-flop).

Another thing I'm trying, and I'm not as confident about this one, is adjusting my preflop bet sizing to target the blind of players that are too sticky from their blind. When I see a player call an opening bet from early position with 3-5 off in the BB, I might continue to raise 2.5 in all other situations, but raise 3 or 4 when they are in the blind. Apart from being exploitative, which I like, it also has the potential advantage of making people start guessing about why I'm changing my raise sizing, as it would take lots of iterations to make it obvious that it was targeted toward a specific position. It might also feel like a personal attack on the BB player, which could tilt them and cause them to start to make worse decisions.

Apart from that, I agree with what some others are saying. The smaller the stack, the smaller the opening bet size, usually varying between 2.5 and 2. There are lots of good free sources for poker fundamentals (which this question is) though, including the free course they offer here. Better, I would suggest, than trying to figure out which advice in this thread is good and which is bad (because IMO, some of the advice in this thread is solid and some of it is horrendous). I think I already had pretty good fundamentals, but I thought I'd try out the Cards Chat course, and while I don't think I really learn anything from the first 4 weeks of the course, I think it teaches fundamentals very well, although I can't remember if it specifically talks about opening bet sizes. I am getting something out of the last couple of weeks of the course too, so that's a bonus. Almost didn't stick around that long.

#### Baldy86

##### Legend
Bronze Level
i mix it up personally ....usually 3x but when i am in late position i also often do 4x or even 5x ....especially in cash games . and also 2x in early position sometimes especially in tournaments

but it depends on many things . how many players are in the pot so far , your position , blind level , if we are talking about cash games or tourney . etc

but 3x is "the norm" or standard usually

#### choprav

##### Rock Star
Platinum Level
I would like to know your opinion on the ideal raise on the preflop with a strong hand (TT and above), and regardless of position. I prefer a 2 or 2.2 BB myself, how would you go about it?
3 or 4 depending on how deep youse are