Strategy Difference 2-7 Single Draw vs. Triple Draw

[Poker_Mike]

I know how the mechanics of the two 2-7 Draw variants play differently.

I have been playing limit 2-7 Triple and no limit 2-7 single draw.

But can anyone help me with starting hands for each and also what hands are often good after the river?

I am thinking about 6-handed tables for both.

Thanks in advance.

 

[antonis32123]

i found some good tips and starting hands for many games besides NLH at "poker bank", google it.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Nobody wants to provide tips for these games?

Does anybody play these variants?

What starting hands to do you use?

 

[zorro222_zorro222]

I just saw this so I will throw my 2 cents in.... for triple draw you really want a 2 and a 7 in your hand and avoid hands like 3456 or 4567, 2 draw starting hands like 237 and 247 are better than 1 draw hands like 2456 and 4578 etc. when you have 3 draws left ..... 1 draw hands like 2347, 2357 and 2367 are really strong drawing hands and should play them really aggressively, especially in position.... if you get dealt a hand like 2379K or 2479Q, you should toss 2 and not draw to a 9 to start with, the only time you you only toss 1 and draw to the 9 is if you are on your last draw or of course in 2-7 NL single draw..... hands like 22247 or 23777 are also really good starting hands because you are discarding really strong cards that your opponents cannot get.

For example if you get dealt 22247 and discard 2 deuces and receive the last deuce, it is impossible for your opponents to have a 7 lo because all the deuces are gone and you can't have a 7 lo without a deuce, it also kills the possibility of them having strong 8 lo's like 23458 or 23568 so the best hand they can have is a 34568, you might even want to pat and snow given that they cannot have a really strong hand, but I would only do that when you know your opponents well enough.

For 2-7 NL single draw, pat 9 and 10's are pretty strong hands unlike triple draw, breakable hands like 2457J are really good hands to play aggressively in position, for example if you 3 bet someone in position with 2457J and they call, if they draw 1 you can pat but if they pat you can discard the Jack and draw to a 7. Position is important in any form of poker but in 2-7 single draw it is a MASSIVE advantage imo..... unlike triple draw where a 8 lo is usually the winning hand, a 9, 10 or J lo has a good chance of winning the pot.

I also think that there is (as there should be) a lot more bluffing in 2-7 single draw than other poker variations and because of that it is the purist form of poker there is and just love it.... a lot of the times it just comes down to whether they have it or not, for example a common hand is where both players draw 1 card and if the player out of position checks post-draw and the player in position bets, they are polarized because most of the time they will check back if they got an ace, king, queen or jack (although some players will bet a jack), so they usually have a strong hand OR paired up and can only win if they bet

Anyways that's my 2 cents and hopefully helps at least a little bit, good luck at the tables !!

 

[theStarfish]

nice summary @zorro222_zorro222 Just wanted to add & clarify (you kind of mentioned it) that the worst J-high is a slight favorite against the best one-card draw before the last draw in Triple Draw (and before the only draw in Single Draw). Also the worst the Q-high is a slight favorite against the best two-card draw before the last draw.
These are great games and always enjoyable!

 

[zorro222_zorro222]

nice summary @zorro222_zorro222 Just wanted to add & clarify (you kind of mentioned it) that the worst J-high is a slight favorite against the best one-card draw before the last draw in Triple Draw (and before the only draw in Single Draw). Also the worst the Q-high is a slight favorite against the best two-card draw before the last draw.
These are great games and always enjoyable!

Thanks for adding that and well said, also thanks for starting the post Mike, I love mixed games and enjoy talking strategy with good players, there is always something new to learn.

 

[theStarfish]

Thanks for adding that and well said, also thanks for starting the post Mike, I love mixed games and enjoy talking strategy with good players, there is always something new to learn.

Absolutely, mixed games are fun! Unfortunately there are not many opportunities to play (compared to NLH), so every opportunity to talk strategy is appreciated

 

[Poker_Mike]

nice summary @zorro222_zorro222 Just wanted to add & clarify (you kind of mentioned it) that the worst J-high is a slight favorite against the best one-card draw before the last draw in Triple Draw (and before the only draw in Single Draw). Also the worst the Q-high is a slight favorite against the best two-card draw before the last draw.
These are great games and always enjoyable!

So would you stand pat in these situations?

Like Zorro mentioned - if you have position and could see that your opponent drew one or two and you had J- or Q-high?

Thanks.

 

[theStarfish]

So would you stand pat in these situations?

Like Zorro mentioned - if you have position and could see that your opponent drew one or two and you had J- or Q-high?

Thanks.

Yes, math says you should stand pat in these situations if your opponent draws, although J-high (or Q-high) is certainly not a "feel-good hand". Post-Draw you can try to keep the pot small. And like Zorro said, if they pat in front of you, you can draw as they have likely a better hand than J- or Q-high and you need to improve your hand.

 

[zorro222_zorro222]

Plus if you break your hand, you run the risk of drawing a card that pairs you up. It also lets your opponent know you don't have a made hand and might fold if they bet when they draw a pair and know they can't win unless you fold.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Plus if you break your hand, you run the risk of drawing a card that pairs you up. It also lets your opponent know you don't have a made hand and might fold if they bet when they draw a pair and know they can't win unless you fold.

Ok, now you're talking about bluffing your opponent in 2-7.

What do you think they think you have.

I have found it almost impossible to bluff in triple draw.

Single draw - I really don't know the range my opponent is folding to my bet - because I never see it.

And my bets on the final draw seem to get called very light in general.

 

[najisami]

Nobody wants to provide tips for these games?

Does anybody play these variants?

What starting hands to do you use?

I'm no expert man, but I found these 2 short videos helpful :

The 2nd one is a little silly though !

 

[zorro222_zorro222]

Ok, now you're talking about bluffing your opponent in 2-7.

What do you think they think you have.

I have found it almost impossible to bluff in triple draw.

Single draw - I really don't know the range my opponent is folding to my bet - because I never see it.

And my bets on the final draw seem to get called very light in general.

agreed, triple draw is very hard to bluff, especially in micro games but I bluff more in 2-7 single draw than any other poker variation. I find players that call out out of position a lot and draw 2 or 3, I tend to bet thin value hands like rough 10's and good jacks, bluff when I pair up and check back rough jacks, queens, kings and aces for the most part.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Yes, math says you should stand pat in these situations if your opponent draws, although J-high (or Q-high) is certainly not a "feel-good hand". Post-Draw you can try to keep the pot small. And like Zorro said, if they pat in front of you, you can draw as they have likely a better hand than J- or Q-high and you need to improve your hand.

agreed, triple draw is very hard to bluff, especially in micro games but I bluff more in 2-7 single draw than any other poker variation. I find players that call out out of position a lot and draw 2 or 3, I tend to bet thin value hands like rough 10's and good jacks, bluff when I pair up and check back rough jacks, queens, kings and aces for the most part.

Thanks guys. This short thread has already helped my 2-7 draw game!

It helps to talk it out a little with people who know what they're doing and why.

 

[Poker_Mike]

RHoudini introduced me to this mixed game strategy website...

Deuce to Seven Triple Draw Lowball Rules and Basic Strategy

Deuce to Seven Triple Draw is a lowball game where the best hand is 23457. Straights and flushes count against you and the aces are considered high. It is extremely popular in mixed cash games as there is always a lot of action that helps liven up the entire mix.

www.countingouts.com

 

[rhoudini]

Hey Poker_Mike, how are you doing? This post has just passed by me unnoticed! How could I not have seen it all this time?

Well, the two main differences in the mechanics are (1) In general, triple draw is Limit and single draw is No Limit; (2) as the names say, there are 3 draws in one, but only 1 draw in the other. This already tells us some key principles that we should have in mind:

1. In Triple Draw, we can play 2-card draws, sometimes even 3-card draws, because we have more chances to make a better hand. Also, the winning hands tend to come closer to the nuts 7,5,4,3,2 in the most situations. Usually hands that win pots are 7-low or 8-low.
2. In Triple Draw, because you need to try to make a good low, most part of the time you need to have at least a 2 in your hand. 6s are not so good, and sometimes they are dangerous.
3. In Single Draw, because we have only 1 draw, it is very difficult to make a 7-low, even an 8-low, therefore hands like 9-low, 10-low and even J-low will be more common. In general, you just play strong 1-card draws depending on your position.
4. Because Single Draw is a No-Limit game, all the time it is a "hide-and-seek" game, where bluffs and bluff-catching play a very important role, while in Triple Draw, being a Limit game, it is much more straightforward, despite there are some situations in which you can snow (standing pat early representing a made hand), specially when you discarded many blockers, like deuces, for example.

The first (and maybe the most important) mathematical concept that a beginner should learn in this game is that when there is only 1 draw remaining, a pat-Jack is a slight favorite against the player drawing 1 card. Therefore, if you get J-8-5-3-2 and there is just one draw remaining, and your opponent is drawing 1 card, you can pat your Jack most part of the times.

These are just some guidelines to touch the surface. 2-7 Lowball draw games are amazing to play, and sometimes require a lot of creativity and courage. Check out the Poker for Muppets youtube channel, and you will get to see some action for both. GL at the tables, if you need me to anything, I will be happy to help.
Edit: I also recommend reading the chapter about 2-7 Triple Draw written by Daniel Negreanu in Doyle Brunson's Super System 2. Definitely a must!!

 

[Debi]

I just saw this so I will throw my 2 cents in.... for triple draw you really want a 2 and a 7 in your hand and avoid hands like 3456 or 4567, 2 draw starting hands like 237 and 247 are better than 1 draw hands like 2456 and 4578 etc. when you have 3 draws left ..... 1 draw hands like 2347, 2357 and 2367 are really strong drawing hands and should play them really aggressively, especially in position.... if you get dealt a hand like 2379K or 2479Q, you should toss 2 and not draw to a 9 to start with, the only time you you only toss 1 and draw to the 9 is if you are on your last draw or of course in 2-7 NL single draw..... hands like 22247 or 23777 are also really good starting hands because you are discarding really strong cards that your opponents cannot get.

For example if you get dealt 22247 and discard 2 deuces and receive the last deuce, it is impossible for your opponents to have a 7 lo because all the deuces are gone and you can't have a 7 lo without a deuce, it also kills the possibility of them having strong 8 lo's like 23458 or 23568 so the best hand they can have is a 34568, you might even want to pat and snow given that they cannot have a really strong hand, but I would only do that when you know your opponents well enough.

For 2-7 NL single draw, pat 9 and 10's are pretty strong hands unlike triple draw, breakable hands like 2457J are really good hands to play aggressively in position, for example if you 3 bet someone in position with 2457J and they call, if they draw 1 you can pat but if they pat you can discard the Jack and draw to a 7. Position is important in any form of poker but in 2-7 single draw it is a MASSIVE advantage imo..... unlike triple draw where a 8 lo is usually the winning hand, a 9, 10 or J lo has a good chance of winning the pot.

I also think that there is (as there should be) a lot more bluffing in 2-7 single draw than other poker variations and because of that it is the purist form of poker there is and just love it.... a lot of the times it just comes down to whether they have it or not, for example a common hand is where both players draw 1 card and if the player out of position checks post-draw and the player in position bets, they are polarized because most of the time they will check back if they got an ace, king, queen or jack (although some players will bet a jack), so they usually have a strong hand OR paired up and can only win if they bet

Anyways that's my 2 cents and hopefully helps at least a little bit, good luck at the tables !!

Very nice - thanks! ( I made it a little more digestible for old people eyes like mine lol)

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

These game are really a lot more about what your opponents are playing so you need a basic understanding of starting hands, position then you have to know what they're usually drawing to.

Like that J-8-5-3-2 example given by rhoudini in single draw, that might work from late position if the action is soft before it gets to you and you know they aren't trappers in the hand but playing that hand can get you in a world of hurt playing a J from early position with folks left to act after you.

If its late and you see a lot of folks who want to see a flop and they have a clue what they're doing then you can "assume" they have low cards 8765 2 etc so they're all drawing to hopefully get that one card but its more likely out/dead lol because they're sharing them so they'll catch trash or get counterfeited and the J will probably be good enough to win. But of course a 9/Ten would be more ideal for that spot rather than a J but the message is clear, that you don't need the nuts like a 7 or 8 to win with a lot of folks if you know who you're playing and WHY J or T or 9 can win.

But its all about learning what you can and can't get away with just like any other form of poker. If you understand the importance of starting hands, position and learn about your player tendencies just like Holdem or other forms of poker then 2-7 is very similar if not more refreshing then playing NL holdem.

But it takes time, practice and someone actually actively thinking about games/hands to really learn them. Just focus on enjoying them but know there is a lot to them.

 

[zorro222_zorro222]

Dealt to me at the beginning of the mtt....