Should I call 2 shoves with AKs in the early stages of tourny?

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angrybanana

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Say hero(80BB) is OTB. Villain1(30BB) shoves UTG and Villain2(90BB) shoves UTG+2. Should I call?

I'm kinda a newby so go easy on me haha
 
dealio96

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This could go either way... Most players will take this spot in order to chip up bc it's a tournament. You could also fold bc you're probably flipping at best. guess it just depends on whether you want to flip for stacks early on. You're rarely dominated here.
 
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neilv93

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I agree with Dealio, there's very few outcomes where you're in bad shape. Obviously the last thing you want is to be up against AA, or even KK, but let's say you're facing QQ and TT then you're in good shape. I think I'd probably call due to the likelihood of trebling-up early on but it's close. Later on in the tournament, especially if I have a bigger stack, then it's probably an easy fold for me.
 
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angrybanana

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Cool, thanks for the feedback. I was playing a freeroll though so I'm assuming calling would be the right choice here haha. I would imagine in a tourny with a decent buy-in folding would be viable option right?
 
limpnfold88

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This isn't a very realistic spot, because no sane person would ever open jam 30 bb's under the gun, but if actually did happen, I would have to know more info about the two players before I could respond with a +ev decision. There's many factors that you haven't included that will contribute to your play. Your stack size, table dynamics, prior history with the two players, tournament buy-in, table images, and several other variables must be taken into consideration.
 
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Icebear847

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Limpinfold ? Sane players ha ha ha... Not less then 4 hours ago in the nightly 10k I was playing in I was in the hijack with about 15k in chips and got AKs and it was folded to me I raised to 2k ( 2 BB ) and then sb shoved with 4k in chips and the BB with 40k in chips shoved over the top. I folded figuring I was flipping at best and that the BB had to have at least QQ+ and if he had AK as well it would be a chop if we hit or a loss if he had me beat or sb had pair and we missed. So the sb turns over 88 and then BB turns over K5s. That just blew me away.. Sanity has no place at the tables with some players. I swear some players think you raise just for fun.. Maybe he thought I was trying to steal, but what if actually had a hand? He is risking 30% of his chips in the hopes I was stealing. That right there is a special kind of fish.
 
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hffjd2000

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Against two shoves and early phase, definitely fold.

After all, AK is still a drawing hand.
 
Lheticus

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This isn't a very realistic spot, because no sane person would ever open jam 30 bb's under the gun, but if actually did happen, I would have to know more info about the two players before I could respond with a +ev decision.

Do you even HAVE a concept of just how many insane people play online poker?! :p

Personally, in the early stages of a tournament, I wouldn't call a preflop shove with less than KK until the blind levels reach a point where the stack you started with constitutes 20 BB or less. But then, I'm confident enough in my ability to outplay people to not rely on early double ups. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless you feel you NEED that kind of advantage to be able to go deep, steer clear of situations that put your tournament life at risk early on. In the early stages, your life isn't at risk unless you voluntarily put it so.

Btw in before someone asks me, YES I would fold QQ preflop if someone raised all in preflop at level 2 of a tournament. There is NO good reason to take that kind of risk so early no matter how much of a favorite you are, unless as I said you believe you need to win that kind of pot.
 
2Pacavelli

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I'd better fold. Unnecessary risk to be eliminated so early, at great risk of being dominated or a flip
 
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Ray87678

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If blinds are low with no antes or buy-in is high, you have a good chance of being dominated. You could probaly find a better opportunity but then again tripling up with AK early is appealling to some players
 
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PBG789

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I agree with Dealio, there's very few outcomes where you're in bad shape. Obviously the last thing you want is to be up against AA, or even KK, but let's say you're facing QQ and TT then you're in good shape. I think I'd probably call due to the likelihood of trebling-up early on but it's close. Later on in the tournament, especially if I have a bigger stack, then it's probably an easy fold for me.

In this exact situation AKs would be approximately 40% to win the hand. QQ would be a slight favourite. I'm not sure how this constitutes being in good shape.
 
YourHuckleberry

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This could go either way... Most players will take this spot in order to chip up bc it's a tournament. You could also fold bc you're probably flipping at best. guess it just depends on whether you want to flip for stacks early on. You're rarely dominated here.

You can't fold AK vs 2 opponents if you think you are flipping. 50% to triple up? I take that everytime early in a big tourny. (this assumes you play a lot of tournaments. If not, I'd probably be much more conservative.) Otherwise, the ONLY way I fold AK in that situation is if I'm positive on of them has AA or AK. Early in a tourny there is no way to know and it is more than likely they both have smaller pairs or weaker A's, hopefully they both have either pairs or weaker A's, but even if one has a pair and the other has a weak A, you will still have 5 overs and straight outs in the worst case scenario. Best case you have them both dominated, which will happen quite often as fish love to call with A(x) early in tourny's, and now you are starting with 3 X more chips than everyone else. THAT must also be factored in to the cost/benefit of folding preflop as well and if you plan on using that leverage, it could be exponential. Long story short, don't fold AK early in tourny's and then don't be afraid to be aggressive with the loot.
 
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Lheticus

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You can't fold AK vs 2 opponents if you think you are flipping. 50% to triple up? I take that everytime. The ONLY way I fold AK in that situation is if I'm positive on of them has AA or AK. Early in a tourny there is no way to know and it is more than likely they both have smaller pairs or weaker A's, hopefully they both have either pairs or weaker A's, but even if one has a pair and the other has a weak A, you will still have 5 overs and straight outs in the worst case scenario. Best case you have them both dominated, which will happen quite often as fish love to call with A(x) early in tourny's, and now you are starting with 3 X more chips than everyone else. THAT must also be factored in to the cost/benefit of folding preflop as well and if you plan on using that leverage, it could be exponential. Long story short, don't fold AK early in tourny's and then don't be afraid to be aggressive with the loot.

50% to triple up is 50% to be gone instantly. And even if you succeed, in basically any online MTT it'll take way WAY more than that to even get close to the bubble. Early doubles or even triples really aren't that meaningful an advantage.
 
YourHuckleberry

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50% to triple up is 50% to be gone instantly. And even if you succeed, in basically any online MTT it'll take way WAY more than that to even get close to the bubble. Early doubles or even triples really aren't that meaningful an advantage.

Double and triple-ups "aren't that meaningful" if you aren't willing to use that advantage to make big turn bets that put scared money in for their tournament or to call again preflop when you think your in the same situation, flipping with say QQ vs. two or more opponents with big A's. Now you can call without fear of being bounced and if/when you win you suddenly have 5X the starting chips. It's all about pressing your advantages. When you have a big stack and the blinds are low, make big bets on the turn and river. When you have a big stack and the blinds are big, make big preflop bets. (I'm generalizing of course but I'm sure you know when to bluff the turn and river but when you are putting scared money in for their life, they will fold a HUGE percentage of the time early in a tourny) I'm all for taking it slow and easy in tournaments but when you have the advantage it's time to move. Afterall, that should be what you have been waiting for.
 
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Lheticus

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Double and triple-ups "aren't that meaningful" if you aren't willing to use that advantage to make big turn bets that put scared money in for their tournament or to call again preflop when you think your in the same situation, flipping with say QQ vs. two or more opponents with big A's. Now you can call without fear of being bounced and if/when you win you suddenly have 5X the starting chips. It's all about pressing your advantages. When you have a big stack and the blinds are low, make big bets on the turn and river. When you have a big stack and the blinds are big, make big preflop bets. (I'm generalizing of course but I'm sure you know when to bluff the turn and river but when you are putting scared money in for their life, they will fold a HUGE percentage of the time early in a tourny) I'm all for taking it slow and easy in tournaments but when you have the advantage it's time to move. Afterall, that should be what you have been waiting for.

Where might I run into this "scared money" you speak of? I can't think they make up even 10% of the fields I play in. Ridiculously loose callers are FAR more common in my experience.
 
YourHuckleberry

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Where might I run into this "scared money" you speak of? I can't think they make up even 10% of the fields I play in. Ridiculously loose callers are FAR more common in my experience.

I guess it depends on what tournament you are playing but you'd be surprised how many $300-500, multi-player pots you can pick up on the turn with a $1000 over bet when you have $4500 in chips and the other players have less than $1500. Even psycho's won't call without at least top pair or multiple draws for their tournament life with just one card to come. THAT is scared money. They are scared of being eliminated early (even if just marginally so) and you are not because you are not at risk AND you are the aggressor. Not only that, you are now setting them up for when you actually DO have a hand and two players call you out of frustration. Of course you have to pick your spots and know when to give up and when to push but a big stack, even early, can and should be exploited successfully.
 
Lheticus

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I guess it depends on what tournament you are playing but you'd be surprised how many $300-500, multi-player pots you can pick up on the turn with a $1000 over bet when you have $4500 in chips and the other players have less than $1500. Even psycho's won't call without at least top pair or multiple draws for their tournament life with just one card to come. THAT is scared money. They are scared of being eliminated early (even if just marginally so) and you are not because you are not at risk AND you are the aggressor. Not only that, you are now setting them up for when you actually DO have a hand and two players call you out of frustration. Of course you have to pick your spots and know when to give up and when to push but a big stack, even early, can and should be exploited successfully.

I've seen the psychos call with middle pair. SNAP call with middle pair even I think. People don't GET scared of being eliminated early. And there's a very, very simple reason for this, and one I am extremely outspoken against and have been for a long time: Late registration with unlimited re entry. Even the sites that are BETTER about this policy usually allow an entire hour of unlimited reentry, with sites like CarbonPoker upping that by more than double. In early stages, "scared money" does not exist because they can simply buy back in. So unless you're willing to double or triple what you've paid into the tournament yourself, going all in preflop in 99.5% of circumstances is an incredibly stupid move, much less calling when people have already shoved.
 
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Fold is fine in early stages, I would say you're likely flipping AT BEST but more than likely someone has AA or KK if the're jamming a good sized stack in the early stages PF.
 
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johnsonrod

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Shove every time with AK, suited or not. especially early in tourneys. reality is you're not going to go deep very often in tourney's. That's the truth!. If poker is 60% luck and 40% skill then it goes without saying that tourney poker will most likely be closer to 75% luck!. Be prepared for multiple coin flips that must go your way, and be prepared for shoving garbage to induce folds. If you can't accept losing 4 or 5 times out of ten with the better hand...don't play tourney poker.
 
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johnsonrod

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Tag players can't have it both ways. You cant say players are going all in with junk at the beginning of a tourney because their donks and then turn around and say you cant call because their most likely to have AA or KK, thats hypocrisy at it's finest. sounds more like their justifying their strategy and refuse to accept that there's more than one way to play these tourney's
 
YourHuckleberry

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"I've seen the psychos call with middle pair. SNAP call with middle pair even I think. People don't GET scared of being eliminated early."

If this is the case then what are you complaining about? If you can't beat players that you know will "snap call with middle pair" then I don't know what to tell you.
 
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johnsonrod

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Actually a lot of people are scared of being eliminated early, usually the TAG's and the NIT's. They would prefer to be eliminated around the bubble when their short stacked and willing to shove any 2 cards that they previously wouldn't dare play in the early stages.
Another one of my favorites is they can't shove because of the possibility of a family pot and the risk of a bad beat/and or there's no value and will only collect the blinds....? depends on which excuse they want to use at the time. But I do love bossing them around early, middle, and late.
 
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limpnfold88

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Against two shoves and early phase, definitely fold.

After all, AK is still a drawing hand.

How is it a drawing hand when u have the nuts when you flop top pair? Lol
 
skiptomyloot

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2 shoves ahead of you, i would think its ok to fold since its early on. villian 2 has 90bb vs hero 80bb. if your calling, you might flip bad against villain 1 who can possibly triple up, and if you also lose to villian 2, your out of the game. say villian 1 wins, but villain 2 loses to hero, youll lose -30bb but gain +50bb which only gets you +20bb. if villain 1 triples up and both villain and hero chop, you make it harder for you having villain1 with a stronger stack to your left. It can benefit if you take out both villains, but given that they both shove, you can assume they are holding strong hands like AA KK QQ AK AQ JJ TT 99. if there is a rebuy, re entrie and your not worried about the buy in , i think all in call is a fair decision and gambling to potentially stack up strong early on is a good edge. Its up to you, depends how you feel..usually folding is the best option
 
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motown105

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You cant win a tourney in the early stages, but you can loose it ,so it`s a fold for me
 
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