Pocket JJ, QQ, KK advice with A on Turn

pistolpetewags11

pistolpetewags11

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I am looking for some advice on a situation I faced. The situation was just a little situation, that I am looking for advice on how to otherwise play it.

I have 37K chips blinds are 300/600 and we are 8 handed. A women from middle position limps along with a tight player to her left. The women, from a half hour of play just loves to see flops and rarely folds. I am in the SB with JJ and I raise to 3000. The women calls and the tight player folds. Flop brings 3 8 10 rainbow. I lead out for 3K and the women calls instantly.

Here is where I am looking for advice, as an A hits the Turn. What are the best actions to take.

Thank you
 
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locha2013

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When she is calling you should not insert too much chips in the river or turn. I wouldn't even raise with a A on the board. I think it's too risky to raise about 3000, you should have checked to see who will raise and how much, what kind of player raise and how much chips he have. But okay we have raised, just not try to bluff someone out with only a pair of jacks and give only 3000 every round not more and it should be possible for you to see if she have an ace or not. My question is have you won the pot or not, I myself have often loose that kind of pots.
 
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The Nuder

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I am looking for some advice on a situation I faced. The situation was just a little situation, that I am looking for advice on how to otherwise play it.

I have 37K chips blinds are 300/600 and we are 8 handed. A women from middle position limps along with a tight player to her left. The women, from a half hour of play just loves to see flops and rarely folds. I am in the SB with JJ and I raise to 3000. The women calls and the tight player folds. Flop brings 3 8 10 rainbow. I lead out for 3K and the women calls instantly.

Here is where I am looking for advice, as an A hits the Turn. What are the best actions to take.

Thank you
Interesting question and I look forward to some answers from seasoned players.

Personally pre and post--flop I think you've done the right thing - she needs to be punished for calling too much. The problem is she's still calling the raise with the 10 on the board. Anyone would think she sees you have a pocket pair or have hit the flop. If you've hit the flop and she already has something it's better than 10's. So unless she's got the other J's ? then she's beaten your hand. I'd be thinking she's got an high card and a 10 and so my next move would be to check and see what she does. I wouldn't put 3k in only to see her re-raise to 10k or something.

I imagine this demonstrates all manner of weakness on my part. It's actually what I'd do if I was holding AA's too to look weak.
 
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twohaha

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Assuming she's a calling station, I would continue to bet, maybe a smaller bet than normal (2/3pot?) Although it is very conceivable that she floated you with some Ax on the flop and hit the A, you can get value from all the pair 8, pair T, gutshots, etc. which should compose the majority of her range. Easy fold if you get raised, as calling stations usually don't raise unless they have really strong hands. Reevaluate on the river, I would lean towards check-folding unless she is crazy loose (eg calls down with third pair or K high), then I would bet.
 
pistolpetewags11

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Very good insight all!

I checked the turn. And she fired 6K on the turn.

The reason I brought the question up, is because I wanted to see how I should play it.

My reasoning here is, once I check, I do show weakness which could lead her to fire a decent bet. Now once I have shown weakness, I have to fold the hand.

If I bet, then I keep control of the pot if she does not raise, but I do not know where I stand.

I ended up check folding, I wasted 6K in the early stage of the tournament and agree that I overplayed them. However, maybe we can gear this question towards how to play 10's or JJ pre-flop from the blinds after a few limpers.

Any thoughts!?
 
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twohaha

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You played PF and flop fine, maybe bet more on the flop (with such a strong hand). I think your opponent will play according to what she has, and won't necessarily see your check to be weak. Assuming she's a passive calling station (that doesn't bluff a lot), she likely has pairs of A or better, maybe some pairs of T. You might beat some of his range, but it's tough to decide whether check-folding or check-calling is better.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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Preflop good
flop I probably would have bet closer to 4,000 but your bet is OK.
turn....ouch a bad card for us.

If you perceive her as a calling station who will pay you off with just a Ten then a "blocking" type bet to pot control and simultaneously gain value should be good. If she raises you, you can easily muck and it will be cheaper than calling her turn bet and continuing out of position without knowing where you are at.

If you perceive she was floating you on the flop to later take the pot away if you showed weakness, then betting the turn is also correct to prevent her from bluffing you.

But for me, without one of those above reads on her, I'd probably just check fold this turn. She seems to like her hand an awful lot. The ace might have saved you money. What did she continue on the flop with? AT, A8... then she just turned 2 pair. Did she flop an open ender with J9? did she flop 2 pair with T8 or did she flop a set? The only hands you could really like her to have are a pure bluff, an open ender or something like KT or QT (and then you've still got overs to fade). Every other hand is no good for you.

This pot will inflate rather quickly by the river easily costing you a third of your stack or more if you pay off her turn and river bets. You just have 1 pair, 1 pair hands are not good to be holding at the river in a big pot. You used to have an overpair now you just have a pair.

You might be folding the best hand....sometimes to avoid being a chip bleeding calling station you have to fold the best hand.

all in all, well played. these ones always hurt a little bit
 
Desmond44

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I read only the first comment, so I'll comment on it alone. I imagine she's waiting for something, but is it an ace? It might be a K, Q or a J (which won't help obviously :) ) or she might have a low/top pair on the flop and might think you're bluffing. What I would do is min. raise on the turn and see if she re-raises. Minimal raise is better than check because then you basically say "I don't have an ace, bluff at will". What I suggest (that I find greatly helpful) is watching open card tournament replays. It gives you a chance to study how people act when making a pair of aces and how people play pocket kings. With a small enough stack is easy to go all-in and not have to worry about such things.
 
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I am looking for some advice on a situation I faced. The situation was just a little situation, that I am looking for advice on how to otherwise play it.

I have 37K chips blinds are 300/600 and we are 8 handed. A women from middle position limps along with a tight player to her left. The women, from a half hour of play just loves to see flops and rarely folds. I am in the SB with JJ and I raise to 3000. The women calls and the tight player folds. Flop brings 3 8 10 rainbow. I lead out for 3K and the women calls instantly.

Here is where I am looking for advice, as an A hits the Turn. What are the best actions to take.

Thank you
if she rarely fold you should quickly have an idea about her tendencies and what type of hands she does this with so you would know better then any of us
 
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sillymunchie

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hmmmm we raise 5x because of the 2 limpers.
and as good as this sounds i kinda dont like it lol, the way im looking at it, you have no information you have just over 50BB
you put in 5BB straight away leaving yourself with 45BB
then you put in another 5BB leaving you with 40bb
suddenly an overcard hits, you have no idea where you stand, your now looking at another 10BB just to find out where you are,
before you know it you have half your stack in the middle and we have no idea where we stand

i guess this is the reason that we dont overinflate the pot pre
so yes the general rule is 3x + 1BB per limper, but in a Tournament environment you want to win smaller pots and gradually increase your stack, and over inflated pots oop is never an easy thing

as played since she is a "calling station" they dont usually raise much, so maybe slow down and aim for showdown value, if she really is as bad as you say she is she may even give you some nice odds :)
 
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chauncey274

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I think best thing to do is go smaller bet preflop (I'm not a big fan of huge opening raises, I like 2x,2.5x,3xBB opens), and then really push it on the flop, like 3/4 pot. If she stay in there hoping for her A to hit then let her have it, she just got lucky.
 
vinylspiros

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bet 55% of the pot and fold to her raising . Dont fire another barrell on river. River is either check/call or check/fold.
 
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Very good insight all!

I checked the turn. And she fired 6K on the turn.

The reason I brought the question up, is because I wanted to see how I should play it.

My reasoning here is, once I check, I do show weakness which could lead her to fire a decent bet. Now once I have shown weakness, I have to fold the hand.

If I bet, then I keep control of the pot if she does not raise, but I do not know where I stand.

I ended up check folding, I wasted 6K in the early stage of the tournament and agree that I overplayed them. However, maybe we can gear this question towards how to play 10's or JJ pre-flop from the blinds after a few limpers.

Any thoughts!?

Unfortunately I don't feel you necessarily played this hand "wrong." JJs are tough to play. If she had two over cards, she only has %25 percent equity there. If she had a pair and an over, that's only %20 equity. Only if she made a set would she have %80 equity at the flop. If all of these situations are equally likely, that means her equity 45%, and yours is %55. I see nothing wrong with placing a bet here. Fold or call you should be happy to see the turn. Only if she re-raised would there be cause for concern.
 
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Preflop good
flop I probably would have bet closer to 4,000 but your bet is OK.
turn....ouch a bad card for us.

If you perceive her as a calling station who will pay you off with just a Ten then a "blocking" type bet to pot control and simultaneously gain value should be good. If she raises you, you can easily muck and it will be cheaper than calling her turn bet and continuing out of position without knowing where you are at.

If you perceive she was floating you on the flop to later take the pot away if you showed weakness, then betting the turn is also correct to prevent her from bluffing you.

But for me, without one of those above reads on her, I'd probably just check fold this turn. She seems to like her hand an awful lot. The ace might have saved you money. What did she continue on the flop with? AT, A8... then she just turned 2 pair. Did she flop an open ender with J9? did she flop 2 pair with T8 or did she flop a set? The only hands you could really like her to have are a pure bluff, an open ender or something like KT or QT (and then you've still got overs to fade). Every other hand is no good for you.

This pot will inflate rather quickly by the river easily costing you a third of your stack or more if you pay off her turn and river bets. You just have 1 pair, 1 pair hands are not good to be holding at the river in a big pot. You used to have an overpair now you just have a pair.

You might be folding the best hand....sometimes to avoid being a chip bleeding calling station you have to fold the best hand.

all in all, well played. these ones always hurt a little bit

This is great advice here.
 
Bowman26

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Seems fine up to checking into her on the turn. She didn't raise you post flop nor 3 bet you pre-flop. Sure the A would scare me but not enough to not take a shot at the pot and continue betting into her. Seems she may have had a drawing hand to me as she didn't push it until you showed weakness when the A came. She represented it and you folded. Remember many people will bet on the come or from position to try and take a pot away. Many will also go ahead and bet even if its checked to them and they haven't made their hand yet. I know if you check it to me and the board looks like that and I have a drawing hand that I plan to call your bet anyway so I will just bet it myself if you don't. In my mind I am betting the turn either by calling or placing the bet so why not place it and see if the other person folds? Of course this would all be based on my feel of things which no one can really have a sense of on a forum.

Maybe a bigger flop bet would have helped or at least a small turn bet to see where you might be. If she just called another flop sized bet on the turn odds are she is drawing. Or she could have made a set and is just letting you hang youself lol. Or she has the A? No one knows but her. Tis better to lose a few chips betting in light and possibly being raised to know where you are than to lose a lot come showdown.
 
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I would be inclined to put her on a drawing hand like J9s, 79s, QJ or AT, KT, QT. It can be a scary spot but I probably would've gone ahead and fired the turn for 5-6k and see what happens, if she smooths it then she's probably drawing if she raises I know she either made 2 pair or floated the flop with AK or something. Keep the lead in the betting is generally sound strategy even when the scare card hits. I feel like it is best to make your opponent make the big decisions whenever possible.
 
Snakmacher

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Honestly I win mostly with 45, 67, 89 than with an overpair such as JJ, 1010, AA or even QQ.. the smartest would have been letting those women put their blinds in and than push all in... if they would fold - you would get blinds .. and if called you would have high chances to win... You should have taken closer notes such as how much they bet if have pair or two high cards for instance...
 
pistolpetewags11

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Thank you all for this advice.

I really like the idea of watching hands open face. I spend a lot of time watching youtube videos of poker on espn and elsewhere.

It is hard to play JJ, however I will continue to play JJ as I do QQ, KK, AA pre-flop to any limpers.

I think I showed extreme weakness checking the turn after betting 3K and 3K. And if she flopped an open ender and had a chance to steal the turn without seeing a river then I think if I was in that position I would do the same.

What I have learned from this thread, and the great advice I have received is to simply play in position. From her spot, she could easily put me on a hand like JJ, QQ. My hand might as well been face up. When you know what someone has, then it becomes very easy to play them.

Early stage of tournaments, I may look to just keep the pots smaller.

Other note: I like raising from my blind, especially with strong hands. It frustrates players and allows for chips to be won without flops. Here is a questions...Would it make sense to slow down and not bet the flop after making a play like this vs say a calling station. It could get them to think you might have hit a set, or looking to trap them. And in the case when I do hit a set, then I can really maximize value on the turn and river as they already like to call anyways.

Thank you all and see you around the tables. I will be playing in the freeroll on lock at 6pm tonight! Anybody else!?
 
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well, i would put another 3k to the pot and see how she reacts...i wouldn't consider chek as an option
 
babydrago9

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I wouldn't ever consider checking here, the only time i would is if i had an ace so she can bluff into me. When you check, she should know that you are weak and verly likely to fold to a big bet, therefore you just need to protect your pairs. You have to think, what hand could she possibly have to limp call, then call a turn. The only possibility really is A2 or A8, but that would be dependent on how she plays those hands before.
Therefore, as those are the only 2 real hands she can have the best option is to continue betting, this will make her fold most her hands. All she can really call is with an ace at this point, or possibly like j9s hitting a flush draw on the turn. So a continue bet and her actions practically places her cards face up for an easy decision on the river.
 
pistolpetewags11

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After reading up and looking over many scenarios I think I found the best strategy.

I like my raise pre-flop. I am ahead of her limp range 99% of the time. There is now around $7500 in the pot. With my strong over pair on the 10 high flop, I think I should be betting around half the pot or more, so $3K-4K is fine. When the A hits the turn, I think I should still be betting as this is exactly how I would play AK AQ vs this type of opponent. I think I should bet again on the turn, around $5K-6K. If this is the case, I should have still called her turn bet of $6K, but my actions made me appear weak and a river bet from my opponent would put a lot of pressure on me.

I would expect my opponent now, to shut down or just call. A raise, I would then just fold to and still have $28K.

In this case, I would see the river and I could then determine what to do based on the card and her actions. If a J hits, then I can value bet if I put her on an A. If I suspect her to be on a missed straight/flush, I could check and let her bluff. If another A hits, I could maybe also value bet. If a brick hits, I could check and hope she shuts down thinking her 10 is good, or even checking her A if she has it.

Overall, I really like the feedback here and I think I am getting some very good insight here.

Thank you all, and good luck around the tables.
 
ChipEaterMan

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Give us some data about the woman, is she tight?
 
pistolpetewags11

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haha poker humor.

She is a calling station. From about an hour of play, she limped and or called a raise a majority of the time. So she plays a wide range of hands and I think looks to connect any part of the flop. I never really saw her re-raise people, but I did see her get away with a lot of bets because people just folded to her. That could have been where she was coming from. She might have figured people will often fold when she bets because they believe she will have a hand.

Needless to say, I outlasted her in the tournament but didn't make the final table.
 
pistolpetewags11

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I most always never have the nuts.
 
mrh2u

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I read only the first comment, so I'll comment on it alone. I imagine she's waiting for something, but is it an ace? It might be a K, Q or a J (which won't help obviously
smile.gif
) or she might have a low/top pair on the flop and might think you're bluffing. What I would do is min. raise on the turn and see if she re-raises. Minimal raise is better than check because then you basically say "I don't have an ace, bluff at will". What I suggest (that I find greatly helpful) is watching open card tournament replays. It gives you a chance to study how people act when making a pair of aces and how people play pocket kings. With a small enough stack is easy to go all-in and not have to worry about such things.


nice but its tough when it comes to a bad roll of the dice going all in pf
 
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