Playing Out of Position in Tournaments

[dragunovich]

Playing without a position is very dangerous unless you have something very strong, even though millions of players tend to bluff in UTG trying to look like a high hand. I think it depends on the level of action that is at that moment .. is poker is the only game that is 100% relative. For example, I was in UTG2, and UTG1 raised with Q10os trying to look like a high hand, I called with 72s and the flop was 724 rainbow .. I've sent all-in and I've lost the hand. So, I do not think a big limiting position in these times ... there are so many maniacs at the sight that it makes it relative.

 

[SoCalGrndR1]

Plenty of spots where we can peel/defend on sub 25bb, even with small pairs!

Lots of incorrect info in this article.

Playing OOP is tough for sure, and lots of factors impact our decisions.

I would really like your feedback on this topic. I know this is an area that I can improve my play and would like some counterpoint to this thread. I have been going through you thread right now and really enjoy your insight.

I am going to go back and look more in-depth at this article, I really want this to be a high priority topic for me. One thing that stuck out to me was the flatting range and the amount of BB left. This is where I am going to focus first.



SoCal

 

[10gerka]

I try to be very selective with my hands, when I'm playing out of position. It is always the combination of everything. Really your position. Initial position preflop or perhaps also the small blind, when you are OOP on the flop. It also depends on the other players at your table and what you read about them.

 

[cwdignus]

since I started to study the positions in poker, I had not yet seen such a good article, above the basics, I think I will study this article many times ... it is a great mistake to give away the basic concepts of poker thinking that you already know everything about Basically, this article really surprised me.

 

[MatMackenz]

Every since I have become more position aware, my game has improved significantly. If I am going to be out of position, I want to have very strong cards. If not, then best to avoid the situation all together. Im not calling a big raise from the small blind unless I got big hand. I would rather 3-bet and try to bring the pot down preflop then call and play out of postion.

 

[XYZ2123]

I agree with the general point of the article. Best to play in position as much as possible especially when short stacked, except of course when you have a monster hand. Not sure about the merits of the stop and go or the pre flop slow play. Both seem like good ways to get yourself in trouble against a marginal hand post flop.

 

[danoscar]

I agree with the general point of the article. Best to play in position as much as possible especially when short stacked, except of course when you have a monster hand. Not sure about the merits of the stop and go or the pre flop slow play. Both seem like good ways to get yourself in trouble against a marginal hand post flop.

I was reading an article today by Chris Ferguson. In the article, he speaks about post flop with a monster hand. He mentions that he does not want to slow-play when the opponent "can improve to a hand that beats yours". He mentions how he chooses not to slow play QQ, while he may AA. He goes on to say that he will not slow play a low suited hand when the flop is all the same suit due to the fact that someone with one of the same suit could beat him if the turn or river comes up the same. All conditional.

 

[Nathan Smith]

I don't pay attention to position for the most part.

Your position and how it affects your decisions is one of the most important concepts in poker.Maybe you need to play more to understand.

 

[Vorem]

Poker - is a game of range. All players know - the earlier the position - the narrower the range. This gives us information about the opponent's hand, after which we can make a decision - with which cards we are to enter the game

 

[UDN]

Out of position range less, namely the pairs TT+, connectors 78s+. In the same position, the range is extended. But from time to time, of course, you need to play outside the box, so that opponents do not see through you.

 

[Poker_Mike]

…….. I wanted a 3 bet confrontation so I can jam shove them in the face...….

Uhm….playing speculative hands OOP is just a bad idea.

Or, you can practice this at low limits and get better at playing OOP.

Good luck !

 

[veritasi]

not many new information for me, but for those, who only starts plaing poker, very useful article.

 

[sergik1992]

not many new information for me, but for those, who only starts plaing poker, very useful article.

Ihor, what about you? How often do you play out of position? Thank you!

 

[Nelson1712]

in my case, I usually play out of pocision when I'm short stack and with regular hands as I have a lot of chance to double my chips .. other times I wait for my blinds to send all in .. other cases I push when I have high pairs or premium cards

 

[ZenGreen]

USed to think it mattered, now its just a matter if you hit, you will win, If they miss they arent bluffing you, so you wont get much value. just the way the game is today. Much f the fineese of the game seems to have disappeared and become like a sterile experiment

 

[Spaceman]

I am not the one to talk about grammar mistakes but since its an official CC article, I think it would be better to correct some mistakes like there with their here. When stacks get even deeper than that you have to make your value 3-betting range smaller, since there allin range will be tighter,

I think the key word to have in mind when reading the article is "winning players". Position in poker is very important. How important? Well its everything, especially when playing against winning players.
I often find with strategy tips that what works for one buyin doesnt work for a higher or smaller one.

I assume this article is not about micro stakes from this advice. Flatting out of position is rarely acceptable with less than 25bb stacks.

Poker has a lot of factors, like what buyin we are talking about, whats the table, whats our image, or whats our playing style etc. With so many factors its impossible to come up with 100% accurate tips that works everytime in every situation. I think if we take that into account, the tips in the article are an excellent food for thought!

 

[step055]

Position is almost everything) Especially if it is button. In this case you have all possibilities to win. But if you are out of position you should stay confident and pray for luck. To sum it up I think that to be in a good position means almost to win the game to me. It works in most cases.

 

[jmateuspoker]

The tips are valuable I still want to improve my game still play out of position is the fact that stealing blinds can be lucrative but sometimes the ideal against more regular opponents can be dangerous and your stack may be compromised.

I play a narrower range out of position and try to have a plan for the hand, hands with the flush draw out of position rather avoid and hands like small pairs prefer playing deep out of position.
And I like to play with 25-40 BB ~ s where can make plays out of different position as 3bet OOP and avoid playing limp out of position or raise or fold most commonly use

The catch bluffer tips at the end with very strong hands and prevent many people in the pot when your hand is strong are very valuable in short we have to improve every day and these articles help us

mateuspoker

 

[PackinPat]

Not my only fault but my biggest is playing a semi-good hand from early position. I wish I could stop, but I want to play the cards and the game

 

[Ryan Laplante]

Can you pick out a couple of specific things in the article that you feel strongly about being incorrect and let us know what you say about them?

Yup, will quote the article

First of all, when you have fewer than 25 big blinds there should be very few if any situations where you call a raise out of position.

This part is wrong, there are plenty of spots where you can peel with 25bb oop.

AQ AK I would not make a massive overbet preflop. I would just make a large 3-bet (since we are out of position I would 3bet to 3.5-4x there open raise)

3.5 to 4x this shallow is not needed, much better to 2.75 to 3.25x if we 3b and it isn't a jam.

When stacks get even deeper than that you have to make your value 3-betting range smaller, since there allin range will be tighter, consider adding hands like AQ and TT to your flatting range when you are 40bb+ deep even in steal situations. When you have a 40bb stack its disastrous to 3-bet preflop, continuation bet half pot and then fold to a shove losing around 40% of your stack in the process, so try not to do that.

1st part of this isn't true. AQ and TT will also generally stay 3b at 40bb deep. Last part of this just isn't really a thing either as our cbet will be pretty small for the most part.

Another example that may be considered acceptable and profitable is called the “stop and go play”, its very well known by now and most of your opponents will know what your doing. What a stop and go is, you call a raise from the blinds and then shove your stack in on the flop no matter what the flop is. The idea behind it is to try and create some fold equity postflop where it doesn’t exist preflop and is usually done when you have a pretty short stack. Doing this its often a bad idea because you will often have very little fold equity and your opponent will be calling you with a very wide range, in most cases I recommend that you just fold your hand preflop if you think you have no fold equity and are behind your opponents raising/calling, the chances are if you have no fold equity preflop you will have very little postflop. This is best tried against tight players postflop who will fold hands that miss the flop and hands like ace high to your allin shove.

Lots of spots where stop n go is good. Generally doing so is far better than jamming pre, especially in low fold equity spots.

• 1​
  As stacks get deeper position becomes more important
• 2​
  As stacks get deeper you have to make your value allin range less wide
• 3​
  Flatting out of position is rarely acceptable with less than 25bb stacks
• 4​
  Re-stealing is best against tags with high fold to 3-bet %.
• 5​
  Re-stealing is not good against fish or calling stations.
• 6​
  The stop and go play can be used to create postflop fold equity that doesn’t exist preflop.
• 7​
  You can flat out of position with a wider range against late position opens than early position opens.
• 8​
  You can slowplay monsters preflop if your opponent will always fold to a 3-bet.

1. True, which is why a lot of the article saying we cant peel in these spots is wrong.

2. True

3. Very false

4. True, but more important stat in general is how loose they open when folded to (Raise First In)


5. partially false, vs many fish it can be a good thing to do so loosely. Calling stations are bad to resteal vs.

6. True, its why stop and go can be great, but the rest of article says it can be bad...

7.True, but generally only minimally.

8. True.

 

[LFC_yllnwa]

sorry guys but I don't see any sense to play something on the positions especially on pokerstars.. Poker is dishonest and playing by the laws and rules is not right at all)

Solely my point of view) good luck at the tables)

 

[Debi]

Yup, will quote the article

This part is wrong, there are plenty of spots where you can peel with 25bb oop.

3.5 to 4x this shallow is not needed, much better to 2.75 to 3.25x if we 3b and it isn't a jam.

1st part of this isn't true. AQ and TT will also generally stay 3b at 40bb deep. Last part of this just isn't really a thing either as our cbet will be pretty small for the most part.

Lots of spots where stop n go is good. Generally doing so is far better than jamming pre, especially in low fold equity spots.

1. True, which is why a lot of the article saying we cant peel in these spots is wrong.

2. True

3. Very false

4. True, but more important stat in general is how loose they open when folded to (Raise First In)


5. partially false, vs many fish it can be a good thing to do so loosely. Calling stations are bad to resteal vs.

6. True, its why stop and go can be great, but the rest of article says it can be bad...

7.True, but generally only minimally.

8. True.

That is some great feedback - thanks!

 

[Rijckenborg]

I do not take care of position. It should be one of the reasons I do not crash often. To make a tasteful apple pie we should follow a recipe. It looks like that position is an ingredient to be able to master poker.

 

[Muzyka1996]

From 25 BB with small pairs I would prefer a fold, I do not really like playing with small pairs

 

[Chalada12]

positions in poker are so important , but that doesn t mean u have to fold ur hand everytime u re in bad position , sometimes , bad position can makes you bluff first ( depends on the players you are against ).With learning and reading about position in poker, you can learn how to reverse position . It s a talent to reverse position .