This is a discussion on NL Texas Hold’em Tournament and ROI / EV Concerns within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; Hi – First post here….and a little long winded. For a little over the past month I have been playing in several online NL Texas
Hi – First post here….and a little long winded. For a little over the past month I have been playing in several online NL Texas Hold’em tournaments almost one to sometimes two and three times daily. These tournaments are group organized and the field has generally remained the same throughout.
The buy-ins for each tournament have been $20 plus a $2.84 rake to cover fees charged by the online app and third-party fees charged to process payments. The beginning stack sizes are 5,000 tournament chips which is equal to 250 times the initial BB of 20 tournament chips. Generally, the tournaments consist of anywhere from six to twelve players and on occasion we have had two full tables for a total of eighteen players. The typical pay-out structure for a tournament with twelve players would be something similar to $120 (1st), $80(2nd), & $40(3rd) and for a tournament with six players, payouts would be $90 (1st) and $30(2nd).
I have played in 49 of these tournaments and have finished in the money 14 times for an ITM% of 29%. My gross profit in these tournaments is $800 and my total buy-in’s including the rake is $1,119 for an overall net loss of $319 which equates to a less than stellar -29% ROI. I have taken first / second place chop payouts in three of the tournaments, second place payouts in around seven of the tournaments, and third place in the remaining four tournaments I have cashed in.
I consider myself to be a recreational poker player who prior to this set of tournaments has played in the occasional live home tournament once or twice a year or every other year. I have started to take poker more seriously the past couple of weeks or so and have been reading through a lot of good information here at cardschat and am in the early stages of the 30-day training. Also, I consider my style of play to be tight semi-aggressive, which in my estimation is probably why I struggle in the later stages of a tournament. I have read a lot about poker variance specifically regarding tournaments including those of the SNG format.
Throughout my reading I see a lot mentioned about needing a proper bank roll of 50 to 100 tournament buy-ins, but then I also see it could take playing in around a thousand online tournaments to get a realistic feel for EV as a tournament player. Please provide your thoughts on this point. Is my sample size of 49 tournaments played too small to get a true indication of my EV? What do you think about that -29% ROI at this point? I have bankroll flexibility but would like to get some advice on what a proper bankroll would be given the nature of the tournaments I have been playing. I realize that I need to adjust my game especially late in tournaments and need to start securing some first-place finishes. As far as my skill goes relative to the better players that continue to play, I am probably somewhere around a B- to their A games. Looking forward to any input you can provide. Appreciate it.
Thanks Tammy. Apologies for the rant. I see my post now under Tournament Poker and now also see how to create other posts under the various threads. I revisited your previous message and in particular the following link:
Throughout my reading I see a lot mentioned about needing a proper bank roll of 50 to 100 tournament buy-ins, but then I also see it could take playing in around a thousand online tournaments to get a realistic feel for EV as a tournament player.
Please provide your thoughts on this point. Is my sample size of 49 tournaments played too small to get a true indication of my EV?
Welcome to Cardschat D in OC,
First of I'm not a Tournament player. Alltough I would probably give myself an edge over the fields in lowstakes I dont frequently play them. Theerfore take this with a grain of salt.
To answer the question above: Yes. I can say that quite comfortably. The variance is higher in tournaments anyways and 50 tourneys is not a relevant sample of hands. I have friends who play full-time and fire 100+ tourneys and SnGs on a day, sometimes even more. And the badruns they experience can last weeks.
Tourneys are a big time commitment, wich is why I don't focus on them personally, alltough the pools are way softer than in cash. As for some perspective in cash we are starting to worry about samples of 100k+ hands. There we can see somewhat see if we are winning or not, alltough for instance a downswing of like 50k is nothing abnormal. "True" winrates can be seen at like half a mio to 1 mio hands.
As for the structure you choose I think you made a very good choice to start of playing regspeed deep tournaments as they are not as unforgiving as turbos and hypers. You might want to look into those at a later point to increase you're volume but you will trade that for a lower ev. So for you
to learn tourneys stay were you are and be patient. Understanding variance is not easy and an ongoing process.
__________________ Poker is a game of skill against your opponents luck