Min raising 4 handed final table

MagicDick

MagicDick

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So I ran into what was clearly a mistake on my part. I started with JJ on the button and min raised to 7K with the chip leader in the big blind. (I was hoping he would raise and I could shove over the top.)

He tanked forever and decided to flat call / check the flop

Flop was 6-6-8 I bet the pot. He flat called

Turn was another low card so he checked I shoved and he called (10-6) was his hand.

I know I messed up because he isn't in even if I make a pot size bet pre-flop

That said what is the minimum you guys would raise pre in 4-handed play?
 
MagicDick

MagicDick

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Also my stack size was 3/4 if that matters. I certainly could of shoved. Take the blinds and waited for the 4/4 to mess up or the other two to tango.
 
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pokersextreme

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I agreed with shoving on the bb especially if he's loose
 
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pokersextreme

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So I ran into what was clearly a mistake on my part. I started with JJ on the button and min raised to 7K with the chip leader in the big blind. (I was hoping he would raise and I could shove over the top.)

He tanked forever and decided to flat call / check the flop

Flop was 6-6-8 I bet the pot. He flat called

Turn was another low card so he checked I shoved and he called (10-6) was his hand.

I know I messed up because he isn't in even if I make a pot size bet pre-flop

That said what is the minimum you guys would raise pre in 4-handed play?


It depends on the hand I'm dealt but 3x is the best raise with a strong hand
 
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Steve Deeble

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I would’ve probably suggested to raise more like 3 times the bb to prevent him from chasing.
 
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EL1t1

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No reason to bet pot on the flop, this is the board that you dont really need to protect from anything, if he has a 6 ur beat, if he has 8 hes calling smaller bet and might even fold to bigger bet, only hands u dont want to see are 8 and A K Q if he calls ur small bet, but u keep his range wide and u can bluff more on that board with smaller bets coz you bet small with good hands too, standard minraise preflop is fine, u can go 2.2-2.5x but minraise is standard aswell, postflop play was really bad and you should work on that.
 
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EL1t1

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also i dont understand what you mean by ur stack was 3/4, like position 3 out of 4 ? how much big blinds did you have? if you had 15 or less bb's most profitable play is just to shove preflop and avoid those situtations especially with JJ since u dont wanna see any overcard with those with such a small stack
 
takinitSLEAZEE

takinitSLEAZEE

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Did he have 10-6std? If so I can see why the player might call here, especially if their stack is bigger. A 10-6 in the BB, regardless if suited, would be reasonable to call since you're not likely to raise 7000 w/anything less than a pair or Ax. In my experience any hand that can be filled up will usually be played by a bigger stack in this situation. It seems they were looking to find 7-8, 7-9, 8-9 on the flop or as you found out any pair or better. It seems you just got an unlucky flop. If you shove on the button w/any 2 cards they will more than likely fold. I, myself, maybe check the flop behind. I wouldn't have assumed a call either but hind sight is, as they say, 20/20. Tough learning experience. You'll get'em next time, I'm sure. GL, man. :y:
 
MagicDick

MagicDick

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also i dont understand what you mean by ur stack was 3/4, like position 3 out of 4 ? how much big blinds did you have? if you had 15 or less bb's most profitable play is just to shove preflop and avoid those situtations especially with JJ since u dont wanna see any overcard with those with such a small stack


I had 140K or so. Blinds were 3,500 - 7,000

My stack was in 3rd out of the 4 remaining players.
 
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duson

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With 20 BB I'd definitely would've jammed outright with that strong of a hand on the button, min raising just leaves you open to too many bad hands calling if they have enough chips behind.
 
AKQ

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So I ran into what was clearly a mistake on my part. I started with JJ on the button and min raised to 7K with the chip leader in the big blind. (I was hoping he would raise and I could shove over the top.)

He tanked forever and decided to flat call / check the flop

Flop was 6-6-8 I bet the pot. He flat called

Turn was another low card so he checked I shoved and he called (10-6) was his hand.

I know I messed up because he isn't in even if I make a pot size bet pre-flop


That said what is the minimum you guys would raise pre in 4-handed play?

I'd say 2.7-3.5 . I hate 2.2-2.5 Do you have a picture of the hand?
 
AKQ

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I had 140K or so. Blinds were 3,500 - 7,000

My stack was in 3rd out of the 4 remaining players.


Its probably better to raise 3x and than hit or outplay your opponent on the flop in position

imo
he woulda folded to the shove 10 6 100%, he probably woulda folded to a 3x 70%, but not a 2.5 probably ever
 
bakreni

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20 bb end jj..for me jj is to strong to shove you just get unlucky...after bet end call on flop,you could chek turn end see on river what bb its going to do...but its still hard to fold...simple you just get unlucky...end reise 2 bb its ok you want bb to call you
 
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stamark

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I's a pot control issue. Cbet should be smaller and after his call, check is better on turn in order to see his next move.All these low cards on board are in his range so we have to be very careful in these situations and not put our chips in danger.So if he bets we have to consider he may beat us.Also with all these low cards there are a lot of draws that may beat us
 
IraiseThePot

IraiseThePot

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Unlucky for you. Not much you can do... Just the question is would he re raise with a pair on flop.. if yes.. then what's he floating there? If he is floating some BS then is he calling a shove on turn?
 
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Sprockett

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I think a min raise is the standard and correct raise in this situation. You are four handed and can not play this hand in a vacuum, as you would need to play a lot of hands just to stay alive. You can not adjust your open raise based on the strength of your hand as this is a huge and obvius tell. You should raise a lot of hands on the button four handed, imo. Raising more than a min bet would really hurt if/when villains play back at you. Aren`t min raise the standard raise anyway if you look away from the first levels in turnys?

Openshoving your whole range may not be terrible, but then villains will have the privilege to decide if you play for stacks or not. I think you are still to deep at this point.


Just my 2 cents
 
neverbluff

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I don't think the minraise was necessarily bad, but you really need to know how your opponent plays post-flop and the stack sizes. Betting pot was the wrong sizing, especially because must players are fit or fold at the small stakes. You could have easily bet small on the flop, check or bet turn, and check or bet river depending on how sticky you think your opponent is. Overplaying two pairs is one of the biggest mistakes new players make in NLHE.
 
Luvepoker

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I would not have shoved JJ here as I think you are to deep to shove and if called are more likely beat or in a flip. 4bet shoving over his raise I would agree with. I don't like the min raise to be honest. I think it encourages players especially good one to call so wide you can put them on a hand. I would have raised it to about 16K here. Post flop i would have been more careful. With the min raise and the wide range of hands he could have, a 6 would be possible.
 
kowrip

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When the stacks are all pretty small, a min-raise might be appropriate. However, in this case against the big stack in the BB, a min raise isn't going to be effective. Even if the SB folds, the BB is getting 3.5 to 1 odds. That's a pretty easy call for any hand that isn't complete trash. You are around 20BB, so a shove is certainly a decent choice. A 4BB raise could work, but the flop usually brings at least 1 over card to your JJ. So, if you raise/fold, you'd be down to 16BB, which would put you in or close to push-fold mode. Either way, you'd clearly want more than a min raise here.
 
dedok0525

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Playing the final table against 3 opponents in position with JJ I would be doing all-in, without the position if I was against 1 opponent I would have gone all-in. I think in this case, all-in would have been rather slower than the draw.
 
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