Land in cash at MTTs

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Rochak08

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Hello to everyone,

I joined this forum just today. I have been playing Poker recreationally for about five years but just recently (couple of months) started taking it a bit more seriously. I have been spending a good chunk of my time (10-20 hrs/wk) just playing at BetOnline and reading up anything I can find online when I am not involved in a hand. I have downloaded Poker software that tracks all the hands that you play and have been trying to figure out how to incorporate the information in it into my play.

All the numbers like VPIP and PFR suggest that my play is tight and aggressive, which is the correct way to play. I also feel that I am doing a lot of the fundamental things according to the textbook but I haven't cashed in at any of the last 20 or so tournaments that I have played. Particularly, in the last 5-7 tournaments, it seems that I keep getting to later rounds and take an exit right before the cash rounds. Another recurring problem is that I build stacks that put me in the top ten of the chip lead and I slowly get whittled down and lose it all before the cash rounds.

Any suggestions? I am just trying to figure out if something is wrong or if it is just a bad streak. Have you guys experienced this in your journey also?

Thank you.
 
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whosdaboss25

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Are you getting involved in to many hands later in the tourney after you build that stack? Are you playing OOP with speculative holdings that really aren't that good over confidently? Are you getting into to many multi way pots near the bubble with hands you shouldn't be? ICM is very important when you get to this part of the game when you have a nice chip stack at this part of the tourney you need to keep it and build on it and not get involved were you shouldn't. Those All Ins ahead of you mean something at this stage of the game and it means fold if your not have a premium hand at these stages in the tourney your ROI will thank you for it believe me and you will get to the final table more if you do.
 
finaltable1

finaltable1

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Hello to everyone,

I joined this forum just today. I have been playing Poker recreationally for about five years but just recently (couple of months) started taking it a bit more seriously. I have been spending a good chunk of my time (10-20 hrs/wk) just playing at BetOnline and reading up anything I can find online when I am not involved in a hand. I have downloaded Poker software that tracks all the hands that you play and have been trying to figure out how to incorporate the information in it into my play.

All the numbers like VPIP and PFR suggest that my play is tight and aggressive, which is the correct way to play. I also feel that I am doing a lot of the fundamental things according to the textbook but I haven't cashed in at any of the last 20 or so tournaments that I have played. Particularly, in the last 5-7 tournaments, it seems that I keep getting to later rounds and take an exit right before the cash rounds. Another recurring problem is that I build stacks that put me in the top ten of the chip lead and I slowly get whittled down and lose it all before the cash rounds.

Any suggestions? I am just trying to figure out if something is wrong or if it is just a bad streak. Have you guys experienced this in your journey also?

Thank you.


Who told you that TA = Tight Aggressive style is the correct way to play?
Yes it is correct in some cases, like when you're approaching the final table or during the bubble. It's good for cash tables too.
You have to mix your styles during the tournament.
If your behavior with pocket 89s is the same with 200bb or 100bb or 40bb or 10bb stack then you're a terrible player.
You can limp AA in early positions if you know that there will be a preflop bet behind you.
You can easily call 3bb preflop raise with a stack like 120bb+
You can fold AA pre-flop if 2 players went all-in infront of you during bubble time and you have a short stack.
You can shove with any two during bubble time if you're a chipleader in late positions.

I'm lose as a fish during early stages of big MTTs, specially with low buy-ins. That's the only way to build a big stack and later on I'm switching from T\A to Loose\Passive and back depending on table, stack and tournament progress. If I've got T\A reputation at the table after playing 2 good hands it means that I'll become an imbecile loose fish at this table, will start 3betting with hands like J5os if i'm in position.

SOmetimes, When I've got a big stack and this stack is big enough to get in the money, like you've said = top 10... In this case I simply leave the table for some time. Since A) I know that the tournament lasts 7-8hours, and B) I Know that there is XX minutes left till I'm in the money and C) My stack during these XX minutes will be Y% shorter. Then I calculate the equasion and If I'll see that I can leave the table right now, return 1 hour later being in the money and with average stack, then I simply leave the notebook alone and go set alarm on my phone and go out or eat something or talk to friends\relatives... I think that it's EV+ decision. It's risk free return of investment + small profit + average stack. In addition I will clear my mind during the rest and will get rid of any possible tilt... Tilt may happen because of winning.

Thats poker mate. MTT version of it. You can't and you won't win playing like robosapiense by waiting for premium hands and clicking that bet button when you've got them. Blinds are growing, people come and go, you have to bite as much meat as you can in a short period of time, it's not like a cash game where your 100bb stack will be 94bb stack during one hour of waiting for those rockets...:wavey: If you've got a big piece of meat - keep in mind that you'll need some time to swallow it. It's better to stop playing when you're on top, cause any hand can win, and if you'll start waiting only for AA, and you'll be surprised that you've lost a pre-flop all-in with AA, then who is guilty in this case? Pocket aces isn't a 100% win on the showdown.

In my online poker experience, over ten years.. I've won 1st place by being chipleader from the start just twice, maybe 3 times. And tens or hundreds of times I've won the MTT by staying deep in the crowd, sometimes I even falled asleep and wake up only because I've changed the sound at PS for break end alarm. Once I woke up with 2bb stack and 19 players left out of 3K and won 3rd place, slept for 45 minutes of the level, cause most of the big MTTs at PS are starting really late where are I am.
So adjust your strategy depending on tournament stages, your stack and opponents at your table.
At the end of late registration you must know following: Total Chips in play, Average stack for the final table, Average stack for the money, Approximate time left till the money, Approximate time left till heads up final. This data together with your HUD program data together with your observations must help you to decide who you are at this current moment of the tournament. Being solid as rock often isn't as profitable as being liqud as water.
Good Luck.
 
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xy23

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Hello to everyone,

I joined this forum just today. I have been playing Poker recreationally for about five years but just recently (couple of months) started taking it a bit more seriously. I have been spending a good chunk of my time (10-20 hrs/wk) just playing at BetOnline and reading up anything I can find online when I am not involved in a hand. I have downloaded Poker software that tracks all the hands that you play and have been trying to figure out how to incorporate the information in it into my play.

All the numbers like VPIP and PFR suggest that my play is tight and aggressive, which is the correct way to play. I also feel that I am doing a lot of the fundamental things according to the textbook but I haven't cashed in at any of the last 20 or so tournaments that I have played. Particularly, in the last 5-7 tournaments, it seems that I keep getting to later rounds and take an exit right before the cash rounds. Another recurring problem is that I build stacks that put me in the top ten of the chip lead and I slowly get whittled down and lose it all before the cash rounds.

Any suggestions? I am just trying to figure out if something is wrong or if it is just a bad streak. Have you guys experienced this in your journey also?

Thank you.

Well, I don't have your entire hand history or know your exact stats but from the information you've given, perhaps you're remaining too tight even later on in the mid stages and approaching end stages which is preventing you from cashing in.I know from my own games that if I had Kings with an M of 4 and shoved 1 away from the bubble, and table chip leader with a massive stack decides to gamble and calls with JQs and wins with a flush, then there's not much I could've done there. It's just variance.
However, if I'm in same situation and 1 away from the bubble, and just got coolered and I start playing overly aggressive, then I may blow off my stack with a mediocre drawing hand and know that mistake is on me.
You should analyze your hands and see what's exactly happening before you reach the bubble. That should give a good indication whether you're fking up or it's variance fking you.
 
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Rochak08

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why do we need a title?

Who told you that TA = Tight Aggressive style is the correct way to play?
Yes it is correct in some cases, like when you're approaching the final table or during the bubble. It's good for cash tables too.
You have to mix your styles during the tournament.
If your behavior with pocket 89s is the same with 200bb or 100bb or 40bb or 10bb stack then you're a terrible player.


...

SOmetimes, When I've got a big stack and this stack is big enough to get in the money, like you've said = top 10... In this case I simply leave the table for some time. Since A) I know that the tournament lasts 7-8hours, and B) I Know that there is XX minutes left till I'm in the money and C) My stack during these XX minutes will be Y% shorter. Then I calculate the equasion and If I'll see that I can leave the table right now, return 1 hour later being in the money and with average stack, then I simply leave the notebook alone and go set alarm on my phone and go out or eat something or talk to friends\relatives... I think that it's EV+ decision. It's risk free return of investment + small profit + average stack. In addition I will clear my mind during the rest and will get rid of any possible tilt... Tilt may happen because of winning.

At the end of late registration you must know following: Total Chips in play, Average stack for the final table, Average stack for the money, Approximate time left till the money, Approximate time left till heads up final. This data together with your HUD program data together with your observations must help you to decide who you are at this current moment of the tournament. Being solid as rock often isn't as profitable as being liqud as water.
Good Luck.

Thanks for the reply. You make a lot of points I hadn't considered. For one, I sort of took the Tight Agressive style as gospel and felt guilty anytime I was going away from the TA way of playing. I might start loosening up a little bit depending on the stage and the people at the table.

Another thing I hadn't considered was calculating the average chip stack for the money and such at the end of the Late Registration and just stepping away for a while. I will keep this in mind when I play MTTs in the future. ICM is something I have read about but hadn't actively given it a lot of thought while involved in a MTT so I'll need to start thinking about that.
 
finaltable1

finaltable1

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Thanks for the reply. You make a lot of points I hadn't considered. For one, I sort of took the Tight Agressive style as gospel and felt guilty anytime I was going away from the TA way of playing. I might start loosening up a little bit depending on the stage and the people at the table.

Another thing I hadn't considered was calculating the average chip stack for the money and such at the end of the Late Registration and just stepping away for a while. I will keep this in mind when I play MTTs in the future. ICM is something I have read about but hadn't actively given it a lot of thought while involved in a MTT so I'll need to start thinking about that.

Sorry I just read what I wrote and it's quite terrible. English isn't my native language and I was typing this message duing my work and playing poker at the same time, that's why some points are not clear and some sentences are not complete.

But you've got the general idea of my message.
- consider more factors
- play different styles against different opponents.

and most important thing to keep in mind is that poker is a game of luck. in just 2 hands you can climb from bottom to the top, and in just 1 hand you can be busted out. Doesn't matter if you had AA and flopped a set of aces. You can't control it, can't prevent it, so sometimes it's better to leave the table and come back later.

Also it's really important to control your tilt level when you're switching from loose to tight and back. Read a psychology book by Eric Berne "Games people play". It's not about poker, it's about a nice view on what's going on around. This book really helped me to improve my real life poker and online MTTs. It will help you to understand what objectively is going on in your mind and in opponents brains and how to use it.

Studying all of the data that HUD gives you is quite important to understand the game. But I wouldn't trust HUD blindly. HUD was a good option several years ago, and a great option about 10 years ago. Foldto3bet data was paying my bills quite often... Today, with all available information about poker, it's quite difficult to find a donk who plays the same song all night long, in addition there are free HUD programs and players use them. sharkscope HUD or free searches at PlayerScope will give you more useful info about your opponents than gathered data. I might be wrong, but I've quit using HM2 long time ago and consider it as a smart decision. Well it's also was smart to start using it at some point, but since I'm not playing cash anymore and if I'm playing a important MTT then I gather all necessary information without any program. I think it happened after I've started playing live poker.

Also keep in mind that GTO strategy is very popular today and HUD is quite useless against it. Players are mixing their mixes of mixed versions of their mixed gamestyles, limping pocket aces and going all-in against pre-flop 3bet with J6s and doing vice-versa 10 minutes later. HUD will collapse after gathering such data:damnmate:
 
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Rochak08

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Also it's really important to control your tilt level when you're switching from loose to tight and back. Read a psychology book by Eric Berne "Games people play". It's not about poker, it's about a nice view on what's going on around. This book really helped me to improve my real life poker and online MTTs. It will help you to understand what objectively is going on in your mind and in opponents brains and how to use it.

I will definitely order this book and read it. Thank you for the suggestion. I will make sure that I am cognizant of not trusting the HUD blindly so I don't get exploited.
 
Bozovicdj

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Hello to everyone,

I joined this forum just today. I have been playing Poker recreationally for about five years but just recently (couple of months) started taking it a bit more seriously. I have been spending a good chunk of my time (10-20 hrs/wk) just playing at BetOnline and reading up anything I can find online when I am not involved in a hand. I have downloaded Poker software that tracks all the hands that you play and have been trying to figure out how to incorporate the information in it into my play.

All the numbers like VPIP and PFR suggest that my play is tight and aggressive, which is the correct way to play. I also feel that I am doing a lot of the fundamental things according to the textbook but I haven't cashed in at any of the last 20 or so tournaments that I have played. Particularly, in the last 5-7 tournaments, it seems that I keep getting to later rounds and take an exit right before the cash rounds. Another recurring problem is that I build stacks that put me in the top ten of the chip lead and I slowly get whittled down and lose it all before the cash rounds.

Any suggestions? I am just trying to figure out if something is wrong or if it is just a bad streak. Have you guys experienced this in your journey also?

Thank you.



First of all, Welcome to CardsChat! :) May it bear many fruits for you in the future :)

As for your post and question - being a TAG player is good. Several pro players said many times that they find it toughest to play against proper Tight-Aggressive players. There is no real way to say what style is the best tho. A good answer to that would be to mix your gameplay during the tournament so you can balance out your range.

If you win early and get to the big stacks, that means you are doing a good job in the early stages. Big stack is so tricky and deceptive to many players. The best thing to do is take small stabs. Try it out with mediocre hands that play well postflop that you wouldn't consider playing with a smaller stack.
For example, stab in late positions with 98s. Thats not a great hand if you are sitting on a 30BB stack, but 150bb stack - its such a nice holding. When I say stab I mean be the pre-flop aggressor (you are the one who open-bets) when everyone folded to you. At the same time, Don't call someone's raise with 98s from the same positions. You don't have the upper hand when it goes to flop, you weren't original raiser, you don't do well against opponents range etc.

Basically when you have a big stack try to take small pots, small stabs, small bets pre-flop hoping to win small amounts steadily. It doesn't do you good to get involved in huge pots and risk losing.
Preserving chips in tournaments is as good as earning them!
 
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LotharMcDowner

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Are you struggling playing 6-7 handed vs a full table? Also bubble play can be especially punishing to a TAG player because you generally depend on cards to win big pots with few hands played. If you get stuck in a card dead period during the bubble it can really hurt. Definitely agree with Bozo (guy above) that playing a lot of small pots is kind of critical to making it through the orbits. Pounding the blinds from the short stacks and realizing other big stacks are doing the same is important as well.
 
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