JJ facing big bet on flop

Killdalimper

Killdalimper

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I've been in this spot like a million times. I still dont know what to do when I face big bets on flop when I hold over pairs. What is OP's range when he leads otf here? Should we have called or 3bet allin? Say I called and turn comes an irrelevant card like 6 and he ships it, what do we do then?

Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (30 ante) - 5 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

camilini1989 (UTG): 40,616 (162 bb)
GirlGamer69 (CO): 13,958 (56 bb)
SamPhisher (BU): 12,362 (49 bb)
LeBigMac (SB): 23,781 (95 bb)
Dooombia (BB): 18,493 (74 bb)

Pre-Flop: (525) Hero (SamPhisher) is BTN with J J
camilini1989 (UTG) calls 250, 1 fold, SamPhisher (BU) raises to 763, LeBigMac (SB) calls 638, Dooombia (BB) calls 513, camilini1989 (UTG) calls 513

Flop: (3,202) 5 T 8 (4 players)
LeBigMac (SB) checks, Dooombia (BB) checks, camilini1989 (UTG) bets 2,402, SamPhisher (BU) folds, 2 players fold

Total pot: 3,202
camilini1989 (UTG) wins 3,202
 
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Smart_Hand

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Preflop isolate bigger. Flop 3bet shove. 49bb.

If you have deeper stack I would 3bet/call flop and decide on turn.
 
Edu1

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camilini1989 had TT, 88 or KJs, AQs, QTs, JTs, for sure, I would give one last call to see the turn, if hit a spade I unfortunately have to fold, easy fold
 
swoopdonk

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I would have called that 2402 to see the turn. Its pretty much a flip with 2 cards to come no matter what he's holding since I'm guessing he doesn't have me beat yet due to his preflop call.
 
A

Anglermeister

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Preflop raise to 1000 or 1100. For me, Postflop is a 3bet all in in this situation. A set is usually not bet 2/3 pot, and I think he has more of a flush draw or top pair here. He would check a set.

All chips in and hope for the best.:)
 
jadaminato

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Obviously it depends on the reading you have of the UTG. But for me the UTG bet seems like a protection bet, so I don't think it has a color project. I also find it strange that the UTG had called with a pair of 88, normally it would have opened. I would pay to see what he does on the turn.
 
pentazepam

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Unless the bettor is a super passive nit that never bets anything but the strongest hands you have to at least call with an over-pair or top-pair good kicker.

Since you are that short it is a hand that you often call off you stack with. Since there are players behind you can even go all-in on the flop.

If the UTG player is passive and tight it is a high chance that he has limped a PP and hit a set since he bets into four players.

But read-less is a much to strong hand to fold to a single bet. You cant just play two pairs or better when faced with a single bet.

If the bettor can bet a ten or a draw two streets maybe just calling is best (but dangerous this multi-way).

If he is a calling station that calls with draws or a ten just raise him on the flop.

Folding is almost never an option.
 
TheDude6622

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Preflop isolate bigger. Flop 3bet shove. 49bb.

If you have deeper stack I would 3bet/call flop and decide on turn.

You are the small stack at the table here. You want to make a bigger bet preflop to isolate garbage hands from calling and connecting on that board.
 
Killdalimper

Killdalimper

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This is of the biggest leaks in my game. Opening with a good pair JJ+ and not knowing what to do on a non dangerous flop vs villain's lead or 3bet. I automatically put them on a good hand like two pairs or a set and talk myself into folding (I've even folded bigger hands in the same situations before). Probably because of my bad reading abilities and that I fail to read their range correctly.
 
Gohaku94

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You should 3bet bigger preflop there like 1k. Also that bet on the flop is not big at all.. he bet 60% of the pot into 3 oponents and from how he played preflop i would just put that guy all in there
 
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agree preflop you need min 3bet - but looking at flop you have two options 1) all in 2) call and see if what happens - but going for 1) or 2) really depends on how far you are in tournament, table historic and your read on player. i would definitely not fold to that bet!

but statisticslly i would say you are at minimum 50-50 to win and really only over pair or set you got a problem.

without knowledge of player or table i would put him on flush draw or A something but most likely kicker smaller than J - maybe a pocket pair - if he got the set - you are in trouble - but you got stack to call and still fold and not being short stacked afterwards.

but a lot depends on your read on player - if you are close to itm maybe just fold and esit for better option - after all bb is only 250 so plentyof time to get a nut hand
 
finaltable1

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I've been in this spot like a million times. I still dont know what to do when I face big bets on flop when I hold over pairs. What is OP's range when he leads otf here? Should we have called or 3bet allin? Say I called and turn comes an irrelevant card like 6 and he ships it, what do we do then?

Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (30 ante) - 5 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

camilini1989 (UTG): 40,616 (162 bb)
GirlGamer69 (CO): 13,958 (56 bb)
SamPhisher (BU): 12,362 (49 bb)
LeBigMac (SB): 23,781 (95 bb)
Dooombia (BB): 18,493 (74 bb)

Pre-Flop: (525) Hero (SamPhisher) is BTN with J J
camilini1989 (UTG) calls 250, 1 fold, SamPhisher (BU) raises to 763, LeBigMac (SB) calls 638, Dooombia (BB) calls 513, camilini1989 (UTG) calls 513

Flop: (3,202) 5 T 8 (4 players)
LeBigMac (SB) checks, Dooombia (BB) checks, camilini1989 (UTG) bets 2,402, SamPhisher (BU) folds, 2 players fold

Total pot: 3,202
camilini1989 (UTG) wins 3,202

Hey buddy you nickname is awesome, it explains what you must do and what you had to do on that flop. Punish the limper...

camilini1989 (UTG) calls 250,

so he limped...

Your opening bet was small, should be bigger, it's a mistake. 4.5-5BBm but I would adjust it to maybe 5.5-6BB depending on the limper. And if several players have limped I would adjust it even more. With that 162BB stack limping in UTG and you being in position with JJ I would open with 5.5BB.

But lets get back to what has happened. He limps and calls 3bb pre-flop, no 3bet, just a call - what he has? Some marginal hand. I would say that it's like 5% that he has a set on such flop, 5% chance that he has 2 pairs = T8s and 60% chance that he has one pair like AT-KT-QT-JT-T9, remaining 30% for OESD or flush draw. So in like 90% of cases you're ahead of him, so why fold??? It's all-in! A great chance to double up.

Why he's betting so much? Cause he has JT or QT, and he's scared, he doesn't want his opponents with KQ-AK or something like that to hit a better pair on turn or river. If he has a set he would play it softly
 
Killdalimper

Killdalimper

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Hey buddy you nickname is awesome, it explains what you must do and what you had to do on that flop. Punish the limper...

camilini1989 (UTG) calls 250,

so he limped...

Your opening bet was small, should be bigger, it's a mistake. 4.5-5BBm but I would adjust it to maybe 5.5-6BB depending on the limper. And if several players have limped I would adjust it even more. With that 162BB stack limping in UTG and you being in position with JJ I would open with 5.5BB.

But lets get back to what has happened. He limps and calls 3bb pre-flop, no 3bet, just a call - what he has? Some marginal hand. I would say that it's like 5% that he has a set on such flop, 5% chance that he has 2 pairs = T8s and 60% chance that he has one pair like AT-KT-QT-JT-T9, remaining 30% for OESD or flush draw. So in like 90% of cases you're ahead of him, so why fold??? It's all-in! A great chance to double up.

Why he's betting so much? Cause he has JT or QT, and he's scared, he doesn't want his opponents with KQ-AK or something like that to hit a better pair on turn or river. If he has a set he would play it softly


Thanks for the hand breakdown man. very insightful.
 
finaltable1

finaltable1

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Thanks for the hand breakdown man. very insightful.

Do you adjust opening bet size? In micro-low and sometimes even in mid buy-in tourneys it must be 3+BB at such stacks. I would say that if the average stack is 80BB and you're in UTG with AK then you're opening with minimum 3.5BB, if you're in UTG holding JJ then you're opening with 4BB.

But if you're in late position, and you have limpers in front of you, you must adjust your bet, so it must be 3.5BB + 1(or 1.25)BB per limper, so if 2 players limped then opening bet with JJ in position shouldn't be less than 5.5BB, you can increase it if limpers have big stacks or if they're loose calling stations. You do want them to make mistakes and you do want to extract more value. Starting with 2-2.2-2.5-3BB is good for late stages when average stack is under 40bb or for aggressive tables when you're expecting a 3bet and you're aiming to 4bet it, then 2-2.5BB is good.

Kill those limpers!:saint:
 
Killdalimper

Killdalimper

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Do you adjust opening bet size? In micro-low and sometimes even in mid buy-in tourneys it must be 3+BB at such stacks. I would say that if the average stack is 80BB and you're in UTG with AK then you're opening with minimum 3.5BB, if you're in UTG holding JJ then you're opening with 4BB.

But if you're in late position, and you have limpers in front of you, you must adjust your bet, so it must be 3.5BB + 1(or 1.25)BB per limper, so if 2 players limped then opening bet with JJ in position shouldn't be less than 5.5BB, you can increase it if limpers have big stacks or if they're loose calling stations. You do want them to make mistakes and you do want to extract more value. Starting with 2-2.2-2.5-3BB is good for late stages when average stack is under 40bb or for aggressive tables when you're expecting a 3bet and you're aiming to 4bet it, then 2-2.5BB is good.

Kill those limpers!:saint:
Seems like I've been opening pots with the wrong amount. I'd use 2.2- 2.5bb at any stage of the tourney. I'll be readjusting my opening amount from the next game on.
Cheers. :icon_thum
 
swoopdonk

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JJ is weak against any one who raises big. Go further and wonder. I just saw a 55 win.
 
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