How do you play this one

07keith

07keith

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ok pokerbuds i got ajs deep in a tourney and i flop the nut flush but to my suprise after the raise there are 4 callers the flop hits and i'm first to act WHAT DO I DO??? shove or check raise:eek:
 
RedCatPoker

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1. If you have a really strong hand and you believe nobody will beat you, than try to make them believe you have a weak hand. Act like you are afraid of possible flush. And more likely they will get trapped.
2. If you have a weak hand, try to make your opponents believe in the opposite. Unless they have nuts, they will fold.

In your specific case, I will check the flop if I am the first one to act.
 
Michael Paler

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ok pokerbuds i got ajs deep in a tourney and i flop the nut flush but to my suprise after the raise there are 4 callers the flop hits and i'm first to act WHAT DO I DO??? shove or check raise:eek:

1. If you have a really strong hand and you believe nobody will beat you, than try to make them believe you have a weak hand. Act like you are afraid of possible flush. And more likely they will get trapped.
2. If you have a weak hand, try to make your opponents believe in the opposite. Unless they have nuts, they will fold.

In your specific case, I will check the flop if I am the first one to act.


Shove or check raise? OMG, Why not bet? Do you really think a guy who flopped two pair or a set on a 3-flush board will bet out and risk getting blown off making a possible full by a check-raise he has to fold to? Not likely! So you might just check one guy into a full house!! Yet, by betting out (a reasonable amount and one which you would normally make, such as a 1/3 pot Cbet) what are you going to get called by? Two pair, a set, or a smaller flush. It's such an obvious board. Tough to get value from weaker hands here anyway - easy to check someone into the nuts tho, isn't it? Therefore checking is the worst one of all!

So, these hands might call a reasonable flop bet. Ideally you isolate one guy with a set or smaller flush and extract the maximum you can by the end. If the board has paired by the turn or river, you need to exercise pot control. If he has a set/flush he may call a reasonable turn bet. Pray for an aggressive loon with a smaller flush.


Now, when you bet and get called and the turn does not pair the board, it's no longer "reasonable" bet time - you do not want to give him good odds to make a full so you bet really big - like more than the pot maybe. If he calls and the board does not pair on the river, I'd sell my hand for whatever I think the guy would call. If it does pair however, your in a tough spot. Hopefully you got em covered and he has so few chips left his shove gives you the pot odds to call.
 
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07keith

07keith

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how do i play this one

sounds reasonable Micheal thanks i was just thinking if i do bet 1/3 pot c bet might i not scare people off the pot, i'm kinda hoping that someone does have the set here and try's to stop the flush on the intention they dont suspect anyone has landed the flush maybe then i might be able to slow play to the turn and get aggressive once there is no spade (i had spade nflush) and the board doesn't pair plus the pot is large?? thanks again for the reply.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Really need more information.

Stack sizes of all players involved? How are these players ? How deep is our stack? Generally though with nut flush draw and deep in a tournament we should really be wanting to bet out and get the chips in. Obviously if we're somehow 100bb+ deep then it might change, do you have the hand ?
 
maik357

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I would have C-Bet It often puts a ? in the minds of others. Shoving would definately scare others drawing or haveing a smaller Flush. From a C-Bet 2 may drop and 2 may stay. No shoving on such a board. Sometimes checking is good if there is a good draw and you have nuts, not this case though. If you have A and until the river three A´s hit, and villian has pair something there would be good option to chk and most likely villian bets big if not all in thinking his full house is the ... best hand. Trapped. In your case C-bet, or higher not higher than pot though.
 
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You should make a 1/3 conti bet. That should be enough to build the pot and a lot of players will call with top pair or flushdraw. Just never slowplay flush. There are 4 callers in the hand so play aggressively.
 
Mordecoke

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You got four people in the hand with you and it is bound for one of those four people to have hit the flop.
I would bet out and hope for a call or even a raise and I would try to get my money in on the turn or the flop.
 
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depends on the table, how the villains are playing, loose, tight, they fold to any cbet, they pay cbets, they reraise cbets, the like to bluff when a wet board is on play, they like to pick flushes with any too suited

and also compare your stack against the pot and other, because if the pot is too big you could shove or check, but if the pot is too small you can make a low cbet or check according to the players involved
 
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HelioCastTCG

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To be honest, you've flopped the nuts 4 way. Your main thought process should be ''Ok, how can I extract the most value from this situation?''. Optimal logic suggests that checking to induce action from opponents is key. 4/5 way someone is bound to have connected in some way, shape or form, and will probably be pulling the trigger. Based on the action you can then determine what kind of ranges your opponents are playing. If you assume there weak (focus on their bet sizing, usually the smaller the bet in a multi way pot the weaker your opponents, but not in all cases), then there's no need to go ape shit with check raises. Smoothing will keep your nuts under the radar and cause your opponent to inject more of that kaching into the pot on later streets. If there's a heck of a load of action when you check, then dont hesitate to lump your stack foward for protection against sets and what not. Hope this helped.
 
RedCatPoker

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Shove or check raise? OMG, Why not bet? Do you really think a guy who flopped two pair or a set on a 3-flush board will bet out and risk getting blown off making a possible full by a check-raise he has to fold to? Not likely! So you might just check one guy into a full house!! Yet, by betting out (a reasonable amount and one which you would normally make, such as a 1/3 pot Cbet) what are you going to get called by? Two pair, a set, or a smaller flush. It's such an obvious board. Tough to get value from weaker hands here anyway - easy to check someone into the nuts tho, isn't it? Therefore checking is the worst one of all!

So, these hands might call a reasonable flop bet. Ideally you isolate one guy with a set or smaller flush and extract the maximum you can by the end. If the board has paired by the turn or river, you need to exercise pot control. If he has a set/flush he may call a reasonable turn bet. Pray for an aggressive loon with a smaller flush.


Now, when you bet and get called and the turn does not pair the board, it's no longer "reasonable" bet time - you do not want to give him good odds to make a full so you bet really big - like more than the pot maybe. If he calls and the board does not pair on the river, I'd sell my hand for whatever I think the guy would call. If it does pair however, your in a tough spot. Hopefully you got em covered and he has so few chips left his shove gives you the pot odds to call.

Your "solution" does not take into account sizes of stacks and what type of players are the opponents. Also you are totally ignoring the probabilities of crashing into full house with Ace high flush. But even if someone has set or two pairs, and is waiting for full-house, most likely you will be called after your "genius bet". And what you do if the turn comes paired card? The opponents may think you were bluffing a "flush" if you check the turn, and attack, while you will be confused without any opinion what cards they have. So what you gonna do? FOLD? or JUST CALLING to showdown? What is the logic of convincing opponents that you have something really strong when you really have nuts in your pocket?
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Without knowing stack sizes, I'm just going to assume that players are not short and therefore some maneuvering to get your whole stack in is necessary.

I think shoving is the worst option, you almost always kill your action.

Check raising is perhaps the second worst; its a protection move you make when you just want to take the pot down on the flop. I think top set should go for the check raise, but not the nut flush.

Checking is not a terrible option if somebody else raised the pot preflop and you can check to the raiser and count on him to make a Cbet.

But I think betting out yourself is the best option something like 40-50% of the pot. Most likely somebody has at least something they can call 1 street with. If they all fold to a half pot bet, you were probably never getting any action this hand anyways.

Also, I don't understand why several posters seem to be afraid of somebody boating up on us. We're severely ahead of everything except set and even sets only have 34% equity against us and 2 pair only have 18% equity.

So yeah, they can suck out but that's true almost anytime. We need to plan our line around what makes us the most money when we flop well, not plan defensively around what's the worst that could happen. If playing a little bit slower is the best way to build a pot, then that's what you should do, and do it fearlessly. You can't be afraid to get your stack in as a 65% favorite in a multiway pot. I just so happen to think that in this particular situation, betting out builds a bigger pot, but I don't recommend that line because somebody could boat up; just as max +EV.
 
Michael Paler

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Your "solution" does not take into account sizes of stacks and what type of players are the opponents. Also you are totally ignoring the probabilities of crashing into full house with Ace high flush. I did say to look at the board and see if two pair/sets are likely given the preflop actionBut even if someone has set or two pairs, and is waiting for full-house, most likely you will be called after your "genius bet".Yes, and they are going to have to make it, aren't they? So if they call and do not, you win that bet. You check you get - wait for it - ZERO! And what you do if the turn comes paired card? The opponents may think you were bluffing a "flush" if you check the turn, and attack, while you will be confused without any opinion what cards they have Only if you checked the nuts on the flop!. So what you gonna do? FOLD? or JUST CALLING What do you think pot control is? to showdown? What is the logic of convincing opponents that you have something really strong when you really have nuts in your pocket? The "Logic" is getting heads up with a worse hand that is going to have to improve. Checking gets zero value unless they bet. And even then...

You are only going to make any money off this hand by A: Betting and B: getting called by a weaker hand. You check, they all check as well, board pairs the turn and someone comes out a firing - good luck. Does he have the full? Well, did he call your flop bet? Oh wait, that's right. you didn't bet the flop. Now what?

You cannot have it both ways. So, you check your flush, the board pairs, one or two guys start betting huge - do you fold? Since you checked the flop, the smaller flush or paired hands don't think you have a flush, as you checked the flop. See what I mean? You have to guess far more than if you bet the flop and narrow the field after getting one caller. So now you shove, and sure enough, one guy shows up with a full you let him check into for free. Brilliant. If you bet and he calls, board pairs and he starts firing, yes - you might actually have to fold, depending on your read on him, if you cannot use any pot control. Remember also - this entire time you are out of position. You lose more here in the long run than if you are in position.

Checking in hopes of getting a bet...good luck. This possibly keeps it a 4-way pot. Most often when in this situation and I bet out the flop I get raised - they think I am bluffing. Then I really come out firing. Sometimes they fold, sometimes they call. I just do not see any value from checking in a four way pot.
 
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scooba13

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It depends

ok pokerbuds i got ajs deep in a tourney and i flop the nut flush but to my suprise after the raise there are 4 callers the flop hits and i'm first to act WHAT DO I DO??? shove or check raise:eek:

First - what are the stack sizes? Is anyone short enough that they are going to call all in if they caught anything?

Problem you've got is that this is a super scary flop multi way. If no one already has the flush then someone is going to be drawing to it. Unfortunately you have the Ace so noone can be drawing to the nut flush.

The only hands that should give you a lot of action (unless super loose aggressive) are set and 2 pairs. Even these might be cautious based on stacks/structure.

Second - did you have the lead preflop? If so then anything but a bet looks kind of suspicious.

Third - assuming the stack sizes are reasonably deep it depends on tendencies of the other players. If they are paying attention then do what you normally do with or without a hand - bet about half the pot. This is enought to make all the draws incorrect to call. Since it's what you always do no-one can get a read on your hand (is it a third pot probe? no. Is it a bluffy OR superstrong overbet? no). Your normal bet will leave them guessing and get money into the pot.

Don't be sad if you don't get callers - it's a scary board for them. With luck at least one of the four will have caught something or hit big and think you're semi bluffing.
 
Largebalance

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All I know is every time I believe I have flopped the nut flushsome insane cards come giving someone quads if I hit a boat or a better boat it juyst see,ms like somehow i lose lol
 
Everybodylovesdeuces

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I would really want to know how the players at the table perceive you. I'm always betting out here, but I have a style that induces a lot of calls. If you're on the tighter side than you can go for a check raise, but notice you're only getting one extra bet of value from it. Once you show any strength, everyone is going away unless they have a set+

My guess is someone else flopped a flush here (or maybe a set), so why not get as much $ as you can in the pot?
 
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I go with passive aggressive. I do not know what you did preflop and what hand exactly you had? KQs? ATs? AKs?
Did you preflop bet (Sure hope you did if you are in that hand in that position, so i assume you did) 4 callers pre so 2 probably have a pocket one a high A or one big fish has 89s in position. You do want a seccond nutflush to call you or a set/2 pair but this depends entirely on their range. in any case i just would use a little pot controle. i definately would bet since we are deep and you dont want to go to showdown cheap when it doesnt pair. Keep in mind any pair on the board is potential a fold *again depending on their range and stacks.*
How much i guess just a c-bet but if they are tightly maybe it can be better to check/call.

if the turn is a 4th card flush or blanc, i think i would check. any seccondnut flush probably would bet here, a set would check behind and 2 pair aswell *again depending on their style* i would call if i have this information
If the turn gets blanc aswell raise what ever feels good depending on the situation i can raise big or small depending on what i have done earlier in the game.
just remember what you did before repping a 2 pair/straight/set so betting here will get probably those hands called and if you are lucky they top you.

if the river is a pair check dont risk it, fold if they bet high depending on pot/stack you can call a small bet hoping to check it out for showdown perhabs it often shows a flush/straight but when he continues get the hell out!

if the turn is a pair prepair to give it up.. just remember you are out of position!

but really we need more details! :)
greats
 
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bkniefel

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ok pokerbuds i got ajs deep in a tourney and i flop the nut flush but to my suprise after the raise there are 4 callers the flop hits and i'm first to act WHAT DO I DO??? shove or check raise:eek:

First off, nice! = ) that's a great place to be!

To understand what to do to start off depends on how much you bet and how much you have behind. This also applies with the other members at the table (how many chips they have). For me, that determines what I do in that position because if someone in later position has few chips and you check, he might shove with maybe a Q high gut flush draw. On the other hand, if you have a small stack after the raise, I would shove there easily, especially if they have a lot of chips to call and think you're just getting the rest in to scare them off, making them think you have an A high gut flush.

There are a lot of variables to take account for here but it truly depends on your stack behind and theirs. However, a check will never scare them away and you always leave them with the option to bluff or bet which you would just call if it wasn't too much or shove depending on the action and again, how many both parties have in chips and if the rest of the players seem interested or not.

I hope you did well in the tourney! Thanks for sharing and I hope I was of assistance for ya bud! = )
 
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assafyer

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You can bet also in your case i will bet 2xBB and see what will happen
 
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joe777

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Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the pot you dont want to make the other getting suspicious and in the end didnt got any action.
 
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It depends upon table dynamics.

You can either check raise here or bet little.

Shoving would be my last option if I know one of the 4 callers is a maniac.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I was reminded if this thread yesterday at a table. I raise AdQd UTG and get 6(yes 6!) callers! Flop comes 6d7d9d. Yay! The almost nuts! Pot is 15 bbs so I decide to lead out for 4bbs. I get 3 callers.

Turn is Ts putting a 4card straight on the board. Pot is 27bbs so I lead out for 9bbs. Next player jams next player folds and 3rd player rejams. I call and I'm facing 6c8d for a made straight with a straight flush redraw and the other player has 8cTd for a bigger straight and he thinks he has the straight flush redraw, but actually his 8d is dead. So I just had to dodge the 5d and the river was a brick so I more than tripled up this hand.

Just confirms my belief that betting out builds a pot and wins you more chips when they have something, and if they have nothing betting out doesn't really cost you anything.
 
Michael Paler

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I was reminded if this thread yesterday at a table. I raise AdQd UTG and get 6(yes 6!) callers! Flop comes 6d7d9d. Yay! The almost nuts! Pot is 15 bbs so I decide to lead out for 4bbs. I get 3 callers.

Turn is Ts putting a 4card straight on the board. Pot is 27bbs so I lead out for 9bbs. Next player jams next player folds and 3rd player rejams. I call and I'm facing 6c8d for a made straight with a straight flush redraw and the other player has 8cTd for a bigger straight and he thinks he has the straight flush redraw, but actually his 8d is dead. So I just had to dodge the 5d and the river was a brick so I more than tripled up this hand.

Just confirms my belief that betting out builds a pot and wins you more chips when they have something, and if they have nothing betting out doesn't really cost you anything.

Right on! And from the responses here (recommending slow playing), you catch 'em off guard when you bet out, as people think you would slow play if you really had the flush.

Sure, some day a calling station with two pair/set will call and hit the full, but they would no matter what, so you might as well bet.
 
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You were the original raiser, so they're expecting a continuation bet. Give them one. 1/3 the pot sounds good to me, and I'd only be calling in a re-raise situation.
 
romych007

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I believe that it is necessary to move all the chips as it is likely that opponents can close high hand
 
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