I've come across this a handful of times and I have to admit, it's a hole in my game because I tend take it personally. I'm talking about the person who specifically plays back against you, either 3-betting you pre constantly, raising your c-bets and shoving or over betting the turn, or donk betting and 2-barreling.

I hate the situation because that one person, although he's not controlling the table since he's only playing against me most of the time, is keeping me from taking control. I can't seem to call him down on over bets without 2 pair+ cause it'll eventually lead to an all-in. Any mediocre hands doesn't seem worth it to call him down but waiting for a big hand against him limits you from chipping up.

What's the best way to handle this? Play passive until he's out or a table change, or play even more aggressively than he does knowing that your tourney is on the line?

That kind of players are terrible!!l have the same problem!they don't let you even see the flop!!In those sesuations i WAIT and in the right time,in the right spot i double up my chips!of course some times i am the loser!If blinds running fast this strategy doesn't work!but in regulars is the right choice!

Well, you mostly answered already:
- you can select other table
- or you can try to make money on that player
(or both if you multitable)

Select good position against him. If he is on your left, then just leave that table.
Maybe he is doing that on purpose, as you are competing on same limit for same good tables. So he wants to harras you and make you choose other tables/limits.

Anyway you need to be ready to risk (accept some variance). Estimate his range for 3-bet, 4-bet, 5-bet. Use some calculator, and be prepared to move chips in with good cards.

Its also important if its total maniac (going all-in with ATC after 3-bet), or if you have some fold equity.

Originally Posted by bnasp2

Well, you mostly answered already:
- you can select other table
- or you can try to make money on that player
(or both if you multitable)

Select good position against him. If he is on your left, then just leave that table.
Maybe he is doing that on purpose, as you are competing on same limit for same good tables. So he wants to harras you and make you choose other tables/limits.

Anyway you need to be ready to risk (accept some variance). Estimate his range for 3-bet, 4-bet, 5-bet. Use some calculator, and be prepared to move chips in with good cards.

Its also important if its total maniac (going all-in with ATC after 3-bet), or if you have some fold equity.

Heh, I meant tournament poker, so I can't simply up and leave. I love this action in cash cause I wouldn't really worry about losing a couple BIs to him but when it comes to tournaments, I hate moving all or most of my chips in on a hunch. Picking good spots can also back fire because if I'm on an easy table, but he's the one person keeping me from being dominant, then I feel I'm missing out on profitable situations, thus making it seem like busting him ASAP is the better choice. But that means I have to call or jam wider.

Originally Posted by bnasp2

Well, you mostly answered already:
- youselect other table can
- or you can try to make money on that player
(or both if you multitable)

Select good position against him. If he is on your left, then just leave that table.
Maybe he is doing that on purpose, as you are competing on same limit for same good tables. So he wants to harras you and make you choose other tables/limits.

Anyway you need to be ready to risk (accept some variance). Estimate his range for 3-bet, 4-bet, 5-bet. Use some calculator, and be prepared to move chips in with good cards.

Its also important if its total maniac (going all-in with ATC after 3-bet), or if you have some fold equity.

It's tournament poker he is asking about not cash games, he cant just up and change tables.

.

Originally Posted by ZekeRam

I'm talking about the person who specifically plays back against you, either 3-betting you pre constantly, raising your c-bets and shoving or over betting the turn, or donk betting and 2-barreling.

This is a LAG (Loose Aggressive) player, one of the most feared types (for good reason)

Originally Posted by ZekeRam

I hate the situation because that one person, although he's not controlling the table since he's only playing against me most of the time, is keeping me from taking control.
...
if I'm on an easy table, but he's the one person keeping me from being dominant, then I feel I'm missing out on profitable situations

Like bnasp2 said:

Originally Posted by bnasp2

Maybe he is doing that on purpose, as you are competing on same limit for same good tables. So he wants to harras you

Villain recognizes the weak table too, and understands that if (s)he doesn't keep pressure on you, you will be the one who profits instead! Here's an oldie but a goodie:

Originally Posted by bnasp2

Select good position against him.

Unless you have a monster, try not to get involved OOP. Position is often underestimated in value... It may be THE most important aspect of a hand!

Originally Posted by ZekeRam

I can't seem to call him down on over bets without 2 pair+ cause it'll eventually lead to an all-in. Any mediocre hands doesn't seem worth it to call him down but waiting for a big hand against him limits you from chipping up.

What's the best way to handle this? Play passive until he's out or a table change, or play even more aggressively than he does knowing that your tourney is on the line?

Again, I have to give props to bnasp2

Originally Posted by bnasp2

Anyway you need to be ready to risk (accept some variance).

If you are playing with proper BRM, a single tourney loss shouldn't be an issue. Variance is extreme in MTT anyways, once you understand that villain is LAG and will barrel all the way to an all-in showdown with ATC it gets a little easier to call all-in with pocket 7's against a scary board. If I posted Ungar's famous hand for review here you would all say I'm an idiot... But he did win $50,000 with 10 high

Last but not least, take a look at the CardsChat LAG Player page which describes their strengths and weaknesses, as well as how to beat a LAG player.

Originally Posted by xastaria

That kind of players are terrible!!l have the same problem!they don't let you even see the flop!!In those sesuations i WAIT and in the right time,in the right spot i double up my chips!of course some times i am the loser!If blinds running fast this strategy doesn't work!but in regulars is the right choice!

Those kind of players are actually good not terrible. Aggression wins. I'm guessing the only reason you think that they're terrible is because you may be a passive player that lets these players run over you. Try being more like them i guarantee you it will work.

There are a few things you can do, but start with seeing what he shows down, and seeing how his aggression builds/levels off street for street. He may like to rep stuff and when he sees that you/whoever does not go away he only continues his aggression (OTT,OTR) with strong made hands/huge draws etc. or he plays bluffs and made hands the same and so on. Try to get a read on WHY he does what he does. AND how he continues street for street when he 3 bets or raises first etc. You kinda have to get to SD here for some reads, but some you can get without as well.

Is he ONLY like this vs you (sounded like that in your OP) then ask yourself why? Is he agro only IP, or does it matter? Once you narrow some points down (he is more agro IP, or from the blinds) or he is agro vs everyone, or vs you then you can start to ask questions as to why he does what he does.

If you pay attention to what he does and vs who, and (hopefully) get to see some SD hands, you should be able to start to try a counter strategy within a few orbits.

so, 1st of all do not take it so personally, take a deep breath and calm down
2nd, trap that guy/girl with some big hand and take his/her chips
let him/her take a hand or two from you, but then hit with a hammer

Originally Posted by ZekeRam

I've come across this a handful of times and I have to admit, it's a hole in my game because I tend take it personally. I'm talking about the person who specifically plays back against you, either 3-betting you pre constantly, raising your c-bets and shoving or over betting the turn, or donk betting and 2-barreling.

I hate the situation because that one person, although he's not controlling the table since he's only playing against me most of the time, is keeping me from taking control. I can't seem to call him down on over bets without 2 pair+ cause it'll eventually lead to an all-in. Any mediocre hands doesn't seem worth it to call him down but waiting for a big hand against him limits you from chipping up.

What's the best way to handle this? Play passive until he's out or a table change, or play even more aggressively than he does knowing that your tourney is on the line?

Well what you need to start doing if you're constantly being 3B be someone is simply calling more with hands that play well in and out of position or 4B them for value and be willing to felt a wider range of hands for value.

If they constantly raise your CB, simply don't CB boards where you have to fold. Example would be you have AJo and he defends and flop comes down middle connecting. We can't face a raise vs an aggressive opponent on these board textures given their range of hands, but we do have a hand strong enough to check and probably call. I mean, don't be a nit and let him blow you of best hands. Like still CB a 225 board with your A high hands and if he raises, be very happy to call because you're very likely still ahead vs this kind of player. Just tone your CB down and bet for value more and don't fold to their raises. If they start over betting or double barreling and they do it a lot, just be prepared to not fold vs them. If you show you're not willing to be pushed around and take it to the river with what is a mediocre hand they will likely calm down vs you.

Worse thing you can do against really aggressive players is just fold to their aggression even with what you class as mediocre hands. If you do this, you're burning your money and you may aswell just stick to a very solid ABC game and just open tighter ranges because the idea of playing mediocre hands is to profit from either really tight players who just fold to much, or taking it to the river vs really aggressive players who have no idea what they are doing and make silly bluffs and take lines which make no sense. Of course variance is higher vs these players because sometimes they just "have it" and you are often put in spots which look marginal but long term you will be profiting from them. If you can't do any of that, I'd just suggest folding and opening your worse of hands and play your tighter ranges vs them and just call IP vs them with hands that play very easy post flop when deep stacked. Hands like suited connectors or low/middle pairs.

It's an option to fight fire with fire. Call him down with middle pair, or even ace-high on a favorable board runout. He's expanded his range to astronomical levels, you can't expect to beat him if you don't adjust your calling range.

You can force the issue with strong broadway cards, pocket pairs preflop. Our hesitation is due to the fact we're breaking from our usual patterns and comfort zone. Like you said, it's naturally hard to call people down without 2pair+, or go all in with hands weaker than 1010 or AJ preflop.

Or reshove over him with something where you KNOW you have him on a particular street. Don't let a terrible card peel off after the flop that he will rep and cause you to second-guess. Don't let him suckout or hit his draw. Don't give yourself the chance to chicken out and fold if you don't want to call future bets. Shove when you know you have him and have a decent chunk of equity. Let all-ins play out.

Take a stand. Sometimes you can be table captain without ever making a display of power poker, but if you come out on top, you're in much stronger position because you've either busted or crippled him, and your image is correspondingly more dangerous as you have more chips to play with. You're making a tradeoff between higher variance with a very loose player, but in return you have the better hand the vast majority of the time because he's overplaying so much and you are the one who chooses to run with a decent hand.

Thanks guys, appreciate the insight. My takeaway on this is to basically avoid any hard decisions against the guy and don't be afraid of taking chances if I'm fairly certain he's just pushing me around.

The most valued information, which I've never factored in before, is that it is part of the variance that comes into MTT. I never thought of it that way and having someone on the table that's just hyper aggressive really is part of the table draw.

hi!
play very tight and let them bet for you
dont bet because you don want to scare him.let him do all the work
with this kind of players you need 1 or 2 hands to take all his chips
you have to be patient

my 2c take on that mate , shove it allin vs him very wide .. if u do 2 or 3 times then he llknow that he cant be pushing u around . so he will select another Person to bully. These Kind of Players love tight Players , the Moment they ll come across a Player who will put them allin in any given Situation they like to avoid that one

Funny you ask this , Have you thought about him having a read on you and you not being able to maneuver him the way you want to?
Do you play him the same as the others at the table ? if so you need to play him different to get him to back off . as long as you show you will fold or show weakness he is only going to keep this up . Find out what you need to do to stop this type of play and gain better control of the situation.

Dont show weakness to him and yes you may have to make a stand some point and time but do it under your understanding and reads not just because he does that .

good luck or skill

Originally Posted by veltins

my 2c take on that mate , shove it allin vs him very wide .. if u do 2 or 3 times then he llknow that he cant be pushing u around . so he will select another Person to bully. These Kind of Players love tight Players , the Moment they ll come across a Player who will put them allin in any given Situation they like to avoid that one

Yea, makes sense, by all means I'm not a tight player, but at the same time, I can get pretty predictable on flop textures. I just try to reduce variance as much as possible but sounds like when it comes down to it, this kind of player would slow me down exponentially and I'll have to take a stand at some point.

Originally Posted by gus201

Funny you ask this , Have you thought about him having a read on you and you not being able to maneuver him the way you want to?
Do you play him the same as the others at the table ? if so you need to play him different to get him to back off . as long as you show you will fold or show weakness he is only going to keep this up . Find out what you need to do to stop this type of play and gain better control of the situation.

Dont show weakness to him and yes you may have to make a stand some point and time but do it under your understanding and reads not just because he does that .

good luck or skill

Solid advice, this isn't specific to one person, but could be a read. I try to keep the time it takes me to make a move and my movements themselves consistent.

I'd definitely answer aggression with agression... Sure, sometimes it might not work and you bust out but mostly if you show him he can't mess around with you and and you'll call him down or reshove, he should calm down.

sitting before a LAG is the worst place at the table. Therefor playing very tight
is asked for.

I try to wait for a premium hand , or to steal the blinds from other players , otherwise I did not get

I know and understand what you say. I found players that lost his slump against me, I write bad words on the table chat. Then reraised my bets and force me to retire and not see the Flop.

My strategy for this type of player is: Observe them carefully and take them for their weaknesses, then with strong hands them out of the game. Or just watch as someone else removes it and laugh.

I admit there have been times when I move table.

I think the best adjustment to make in these spots is too just tighten your opening ranges , and adjust you postflop calling ranges to equate his aggression . Sure you don't wanna risk your tournament all the time on 1 pair type hands but vs overly aggro opponents , sometimes one pair is good enough.

These guys are tricky. like others have said I would tighten up ur opening ranges and avoid playing hands OOP against this type of opponent

There are 2 ways when you play with Hyper Lags. Either you sit on your stack and don't play a lot of pots against him (specially if he has position on you) or you fight back. The second option of fighting back, is a high variance option. You will have to admit to yourself that it is "double up or bust" option.

A first step about preflop play against him, specially if he 3bets you a lot when he has position on you, is to close a bit your opening range and open a bit your 4bet range.

Bide your time, eventually he will overstep and them you have him.

It is best in a given situation do not let yourself be provoked.

Definitely open up your range against him and fight fire with fire. Once you get a premium against this guy give him enough rope to hang himself with.

This is a strategy that I have had success with. Wait until you get a strong hand, of course. Limp into the pot by calling the BB and hope he raises. Then call his preflop raise. Check the flop, then call his C-bet (I am assuming you hit something on the flop). Then shove the turn. The turn bet usually scares them off. They are banking on you folding and will continue to bet, so if you just keep showing weakness (checking, limping, calling) you can induce them into betting. In other words, set him up for a ball, and avoid playing hands you are not comfortable with a re-raise (which is a good strategy any way).

playing LAG there are some advantages and some negatives.
+ = playig bigger pots vs the players in position
-= playing bigger pots vs players sitting oop
So sitting just before him you have a disadvantage in position. You need to select your playing hands and bet sizes to overcome this advantage.
Beeing agressive vs a player in position is the worst thing you can do.
Therefor you can only play very tight. E. g. if you have a big hand just call and if the LAG raises and get some callers you make a big 3-bet ready to go all in on the flop.

I got the same problem with overbeting against me . So very helpfull stuffs here, ty guys !

play tighter pre, play stronger range in general. I would check call a bit more and widen calling ranges post flop. Look for some decent re-shove spots, 4 bet wider with intention to get it in.

becareful trapping this player type with medium type hands when it goes multi way. Very often other players have the same strat and start limping and checking sometimes with stronger hands.

Originally Posted by ZekeRam

I've come across this a handful of times and I have to admit, it's a hole in my game because I tend take it personally. I'm talking about the person who specifically plays back against you, either 3-betting you pre constantly, raising your c-bets and shoving or over betting the turn, or donk betting and 2-barreling.

I hate the situation because that one person, although he's not controlling the table since he's only playing against me most of the time, is keeping me from taking control. I can't seem to call him down on over bets without 2 pair+ cause it'll eventually lead to an all-in. Any mediocre hands doesn't seem worth it to call him down but waiting for a big hand against him limits you from chipping up.

What's the best way to handle this? Play passive until he's out or a table change, or play even more aggressively than he does knowing that your tourney is on the line?

i think we have anytime option "fold" and if you in position with premium hand (40bb+) u can all 3bet 4bet, but if you really need $ and dont much risk we have option "fold"
KJ AK QK hands in this situation lose much time 22 33 77 9T
captain obvious strikes again!))

It's just a waiting game with these type of people. It will help if you see them play a hand with someone else and it comes to showdown so you can see what they were over betting with. But really, you just have to let them dig their own grave when you're sitting on the nuts or second nuts. Those type of people always end up shooting themselves in the foot

depends on the situation tourney vs cash game. In tournament play I tend to play that much tighter, and then play passively when I hit a hand, and let him/her bet to me.....cash game I simply go to a different table no profit to be had fighting against uber agro players.

depends on format stack levels etc. there is the reverse lag playback basically they play lag to provoke you to play lag back and then hang you.

at certain stack sizes this is not possible eg 20 or less blinds theres a lot of re raise shove spots which they cant exploit and will hammer the hell out of them.

100 blinds deep it can get a lot more ugly though. if you play tight they can recognize the range you playing and fight back the trick is to range merge eg you might re raise them with stuff like AJ A10s KQ KJs 88+ but also 76s 87s 98s 109s etc of couse if you go that route you have to play your draws very aggressively as if you have already made them.

if you also play made hands very aggressive it will put them in a world of pain. also bluff x% of the time but have it y% etc. when I was playing heads up hypers i got pretty good at fighting this type of player.

However I never did the math or worked on how to combat this deep stacked.

This type of player is especially annoying in STT's, where any reraise basically pot commits you. I must admit these players take me off my game, especially if they are on my left.

Tricky situation to deal with, probably one of my worse not withstanding donkeys constantly lucking out, but anyway. I tend to ease up on my game, be prepared to fold more often than usual. call where you would normally raise. Wait for your time, or wait for someone else to do the work for you. If everyone else fails to do it for you, just remember you can play the others not the villain. Try to work it so he alows you to see flops, chances are he will get bored. Hopefully it ties in with a nice hand working well and now its time to do the damage . Try to use it as an opportunity to work out his game. Chances are it's a standard 4xBB repeated over and over maybe varied to get a call. try and work out his reaction to others playing. There's more for you to learn from him than he from you if he doesn't change his game. GL

juste wait my hand and go all in......

If you dnt have good cards and you know he will over bet fold but if you have good cards raise and if he reraises you reraise or go all in

Because I study child Players Playing mostly to luck, it's a hole in my game because I tend take it personally. I'm talking about the person who specifically plays back against you, either 3-betting you pre constantly, raising your c-bets and shoving or over betting the turn, or donk betting and 2-barreling.

I guess by playing with the cards you have and by having the confidence that you indeed win. It does seem frustrating as if it is directed at you. One does not know for sure. This person is probably reading that you will fold perhaps based on prior game analysis. Someone will eventually call as I am sure others would be noticing also.

If im seeing that he cant handle some situations, ill be more likely to call his rise but on some good pairs or some highs with kicker. I have to be sure, but most of the times im calling his re-bet cause the bet isnt that bigger than mine.
If its bigger, i have to rethink his actions. Some players i think use it for strategy, i dont know how much it helps but ill read more here and will see.

ZekeRam one thing you have realize is the fact that player or another can't have a great hand every round. So with that in mind, if you want to stop him or at least slow him,down, when you have a good starting hand that you believe you can call, raise, or even move all in with, and if you are first to act, make like a 3bet, and then when he re-raises you have to fire back no matter win or lose You have to get some respect at the table, or he will continue doing the same. Always know your position and know what you can and can't play in that position. And use it against moron players GL to you

This seems to me not like a certain type of player but in fact a very specific player that you must deal with often. If that is the case you might need to bully the bully.

playing tight against such players are good
if he re raise your bet everytime than its better for you to control on yourself and when good cards comes on your hand than play against his raise

Recently I have encountered these types of players more often than usual at the microstakes level. I also encountered this type of player in a recent freeroll who seemed to go all-in every time I was on the button. Luckily somene else picked up a hand and knocked him out of the tournament. My strategy is to just sit tight and wait for a hand good enough to call. Short term I may feel like I'm losing against this player, but I know that in order to be successful in this game it's all about the long term. If I can leave the table and return with a better position against this player then so be it. Otherwise, I'm going to sit back and wait or leave the table all together, which I have been doing, especially against some of these players from Brazil and one in particular from Israel.

I would say if he overbet me i will reraise to all-in with a medium hand, just for the lolz, and to beat him of course

i was playing last night and against a good player seen him at plenty of final tables well he got about 16k early in this event i had like 4500 I woul with decent cards and position call with no raisers well he would reraise after about ten minutes i caught him for a couple k so was like 6800 to his 13500 say. At that point he went all in over and over and over where had to wait till got a hand to play against him think was 1010 that time. Well he went all in when i limped and i called and caught him with 87. That was like at half hour so I had the chip lead now like 16k and he was shorted he continued to go all in 5-6 times in a row. I got nines called him and took him out. Had like a king 2 if remember right. It took a long time to miss hand after hand after hand. Yet end of that first hour I was in chip lead and finished at a final table.

Patience and perseverance are my keys to this game i say it to self all the time. Cant win every event and cant win in the first hour if isnt an sng lol. So patience is the first key waiting for some quality in order to make a move on the guy causing me an headache lol. Perseverance is next and thats when this yahoo catches on the jack two to my aces and ruins my day Yet its about having short term memory and moving on to the next mission

Hope advice helps a bit we all run into these guys. Sometimes they burn us. Sad thing is this is a good player who was drunk or in some type of mood lol

I wait for good spot and good cards in that spot to take revange.. I reraise him when he commited to pot or open the pot.. and if he reraise my raise then snap all in..

I think double his bet or All-in is the best way, but i will consider it over and over when the tournament is in bubble period.