You are in the money. And very far from the final table.

UTG+1 shoves with 14BB VP 22 PR15

Cutoff raise all in with 20BB VP 28 PR 20

You are sitting in the SB with JJs 12BB

Can you find a fold?

No...I will call even with 88, you are talking for JJ, such a monster. I will be so happy to call with JJ. Snap call...Actually not "snap", I will wait 7-8 seconds. Hoping for BB to come as well...

Originally Posted by blix177

You are in the money. And very far from the final table.

UTG+1 shoves with 14BB VP 22 PR15

Cutoff raise all in with 20BB VP 28 PR 20

You are sitting in the SB with JJs 12BB

Can you find a fold?

It depends on the position. If I would be waiting for a money jump then maybe I would fold it. But if I was way far from the money jump either, I would take a shot and go all in. But it's a risky position, JJ is not a great hand to be 3rd shover.

I don't fold JJ on prefrop with less than effective stack 30bb.

You hope you're facing AK vs AK and shove. JJ is 45% against AK and AQ, so that's not bad either.

Of course you could be facing QQ+ and be drawing (nearly) dead, but I think you need to call.

A reason not to call is if you have small stacks to your left you can take advantage of.

Fold here, Think about UTG+1 shoves, that's pretty strong here, but somehow discourage action here, At lease AJ or 8+ pairs here, and Cut off goes all in, he must be really confident, since he 20BB no worry about his stack. He goes all in here, at least QQ, AK, AQ, KK, AA. If you evaluate from equliab, you have about 33 percent winning here, both all in or fold all good play. However, If cut off tight player, he could fold AQ or UTG+1 is tight player his range would be QQ+, and AK+. Percentage your win is down to 25%, From 33% to 25%, you not gain any EV here even lose EV. So, I would fold here. If you calculate odds, you wining is between 1 to 2 and 1 to 3, but the maxinum win here is 1 to 2. Also, there's one player behind you. So, simple fold.

I can and have folded J-J with two all-ins in front of me. I'm not really the biggest fan of multi-way all-ins. I would definitely call against one player. But facing an all-in and a call or re-shove, I'm likely to just get out of the way.

i don't use huds, so the vpip/pfr doesn't mean anything to me.

with 12 bbs, this is a very easy call in what is very likely a pretty close equity spot where i'm likely slightly ahead/behind most ranges. of course, if these are the 2 nittiest players at the table, then i can find a fold. but, against majority of players, this is a pretty easy call.

with 12 bbs, i'm happy to get my money in low risk/high reward situations. as a short stack that is nowhere near the final table, i'm not concerned about small money jumps and happy to take riskier lines to put myself in a much better position to run deep. since i only have 12 bbs and i'm freerolling the mtt, and i'm in a likely a slightly ahead/behind equity spot preflop, then i have very little to lose calling here and a lot more to gain when my hand holds.

as far my opponent's ranges, there aren't a lot of hands i'm worried about in this spot except qq-aa. but, how much do i have to worry about in this spot? if they have qq-aa, oh well, unlucky me. if i have aa, does it matter if i have jj here or kk? not at all. but there are also a ton of hands 14 bbs is jamming utg1 and that co is rejamming that jj is ahead off. so, because of that, i except jj to be in a slight ahead/behind equity spot here and, again, i'm willing to risk it in the close equity spots as a short stack.

now, is calling here correct or not? of the top of my head, i don't know. i'm sure i could plug it somewhere and get a much better answer if it's a +ev/-ev/=ev spot. but, looking at from a perspective of being in the moment, it's a clear call for me.

I think, JJ is way ahead of a UTG+1 14BB shoving range. Sometimes you can even partially remove KK+, because some players would miniraise or limp those hands to trap. So against just one opponent JJ is an absolute snap call, and its not even a decision.

When someone else has already come along as well, and even risking a slightly larger stack, it becomes a much closer spot. But when CO has LAG-like stats, I can not fold JJ to his overshove.

I think, you are on balance going to get it in with a reasonable equity edge, and far from the final table there is no significant ICM-pressure. So to me this look like an ok spot to try and get lucky and build that large stack, which can take you further in the tournament.

I will say though, that if CO was a nitty player like VPIP 13 / PFR 11 / 3-bet 4, then I would fold JJ and take a mental note of, what they both showed up with. So this is a spot, where HUD-stats will actually matter to my decision.

I might give it to you here because of the low number of chips, but otherwise if I had 30BB or more chips, I'd definitely throw it away. JJ can be very little against 2 opponents but even against an opponent, I don't like JJ.

Originally Posted by ohshootmybad

i don't use huds, so the vpip/pfr doesn't mean anything to me.

with 12 bbs, this is a very easy call in what is very likely a pretty close equity spot where i'm likely slightly ahead/behind most ranges. of course, if these are the 2 nittiest players at the table, then i can find a fold. but, against majority of players, this is a pretty easy call.

with 12 bbs, i'm happy to get my money in low risk/high reward situations. as a short stack that is nowhere near the final table, i'm not concerned about small money jumps and happy to take riskier lines to put myself in a much better position to run deep. since i only have 12 bbs and i'm freerolling the mtt, and i'm in a likely a slightly ahead/behind equity spot preflop, then i have very little to lose calling here and a lot more to gain when my hand holds.

as far my opponent's ranges, there aren't a lot of hands i'm worried about in this spot except qq-aa. but, how much do i have to worry about in this spot? if they have qq-aa, oh well, unlucky me. if i have aa, does it matter if i have jj here or kk? not at all. but there are also a ton of hands 14 bbs is jamming utg1 and that co is rejamming that jj is ahead off. so, because of that, i except jj to be in a slight ahead/behind equity spot here and, again, i'm willing to risk it in the close equity spots as a short stack.

now, is calling here correct or not? of the top of my head, i don't know. i'm sure i could plug it somewhere and get a much better answer if it's a +ev/-ev/=ev spot. but, looking at from a perspective of being in the moment, it's a clear call for me.

This ^
but honestly it's far from being a 'close equity spot'. We stand to potentially more than triple up here in this spot & this will put us into an entirely new situation giving us much more leverage going forward,

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I think, JJ is way ahead of a UTG+1 14BB shoving range. Sometimes you can even partially remove KK+, because some players would miniraise or limp those hands to trap. So against just one opponent JJ is an absolute snap call, and its not even a decision.

When someone else has already come along as well, and even risking a slightly larger stack, it becomes a much closer spot. But when CO has LAG-like stats, I can not fold JJ to his overshove.

I think, you are on balance going to get it in with a reasonable equity edge, and far from the final table there is no significant ICM-pressure. So to me this look like an ok spot to try and get lucky and build that large stack, which can take you further in the tournament.

& this ^

but tbh I am calling here so fast it'd look like that thing Phil Helmuth does at live events.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

This ^
but honestly it's far from being a 'close equity spot'. We stand to potentially more than triple up here in this spot & this will put us into an entirely new situation giving us much more leverage going forward

by 'close equity spot' i meant against our opponents' shove ranges.

we're likely never really far behind here. maybe, at worse, we have 25-30% preflop equity. and it's unlikely we're a huge favorite in this spot. against 2 100% shove ranges, we only have 60% equity, so we lose quite often in this spot as well. but, given our stack size, we're happy to get it in an close equity range of 30 - 60% preflop.

I will fold such a hand in this situation, because I am sure 100% , there are always 2 players with pair on the table. If I am so far from the final table I will fold for sure.

Originally Posted by Suzana2304

I will fold such a hand in this situation, because I am sure 100% , there are always 2 players with pair on the table. If I am so far from the final table I will fold for sure.

why are folding here when you're far from the final table and only have 12 bbs?

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

We stand to potentially more than triple up here in this spot & this will put us into an entirely new situation giving us much more leverage going forward

I think, this is a point, many people miss. They dont want to "risk their tournament life", but in reality this is not a good way to think about the situation. Hero is already in the money, he is a short stack, and the final table is still far away. So even if calling here will result in Hero busting 65-70% of the time, that is fine.

If Hero bust, then at least he is not spending more time hanging around in a situation, where he is probably not generating a lot of skill edge or leverage with a significantly below average stack, especially if this is a regular speed MTT. If on the other hand Hero become a 38BB stack, now a whole new world of opportunities open up. He can put pressure on shorter stacks, and he can get involved in postflop play, where its possible to have a big skill edge on at least some opponents.

So I did end up calling and it was A10s UTG+1 and KKs at cutoff.

I think I could have went either way with this, but I had 6 tables open and didn't mind have 1 closed, since I tend to lose focus above 3.

It's weird how it is sometimes things outside the game that have you take 1 path vs another.

It is a tournament I think that if I folded, at cash tables I probably would call the bets.

JJ and AK would get dumped if I had any history on the two shovers.

Originally Posted by blix177

You are in the money. And very far from the final table.

UTG+1 shoves with 14BB VP 22 PR15

Cutoff raise all in with 20BB VP 28 PR 20

You are sitting in the SB with JJs 12BB

Can you find a fold?

Insta fold - JJ never win. Vs 2 players nearing FT - it's a sure loser.
At best you are 45% - which is to say - you are losing, not even a flip, and remember - an Ace is ALWAYS coming, and one of your opponents has an Ace.

Easy fold - you have ample BBs to pick up a better spot.

Of course several people make compelling arguments that this is a great place to triple up nearing FT. Fact is though - that opinion is the opinion of people that end up sitting on the rail watching the FT.

Edit: I thought this was near FT bubble. If we are still far away from nearing FT bubble - this is a call all day long - and twice on Sunday when all the gamblers are playing.

I have so much bad beats with JJ, this hans always trolls me, so i fold

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

Insta fold - JJ never win. Vs 2 players nearing FT - it's a sure loser.
At best you are 45% - which is to say - you are losing, not even a flip, and remember - an Ace is ALWAYS coming, and one of your opponents has an Ace.

Easy fold - you have ample BBs to pick up a better spot.

Of course several people make compelling arguments that this is a great place to triple up nearing FT. Fact is though - that opinion is the opinion of people that end up sitting on the rail watching the FT.

Edit: I thought this was near FT bubble. If we are still far away from nearing FT bubble - this is a call all day long - and twice on Sunday when all the gamblers are playing.

First of all, how do you figure he is 'at best 45%' ??

fwiw, 'if' he was 45% in this spot then it is a CALL ALL DAY LONG

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

First of all, how do you figure he is 'at best 45%' ??

fwiw, 'if' he was 45% in this spot then it is a CALL ALL DAY LONG

First of all - if he's up against A/K and A/Q (best case scenario) he is at best 45%. Unlikely though, and the results show. My initial response was nearing FT - where I'm not putting big money on the line with shit JJs vs 2 opponents. You can make the call if ya want - and watch FT from the rail. LOL

However - my edit - being that this is not nearing FT with a short stack - easy call, and most likely lose, but still gotta gamble with this short of a stack.

Such a sad story. Ok, use the Equilab, if you don't know the answer.

UTG range, can be more tight, can be more loose, but let's say:
AQo, AJo, ATo, 22-JJ, AJs, Ats, A9s, A5s, A4s, A3s, KQs, KJs, QJs, KQo.

CO range, can be more tight, can be more loose, but let's say:

77-AA, AJ-AK, ATs, KQs.

Also there are blinds and ante. Also BB can call with some stupid hand. Or good hand, whatever. JJ is a monster here. The ICM is not a big factor, pretty small here actually, almost "no matter". Also, if you win, you will have a big stack, this is an advantage (+EV). "JJ never win". Yeah, "never", only half of the time vs this two.

What is wrong with you!? All of you...

Lets do some actual equity calculations in Equilab instead of all this guessing. First the pot odds. Being in small blind with a 12BB stack, Hero is paying 11,5BB to win a pot of around 38BB. Hero need 30,3% equity to break even on pure chip EV, and since everyone agree, there is no big ICM pressure here, let us just use that number. Let us also ignore, that a very small percentage of the time big blind will call as well, and it will be a 4-ways pot.

First I will assign some relatively wide but I think realistic ranges to both players:

UTG+1 is jamming 77+. AJo+, KQo, A9s+, JTs+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 36,89% equity

Now lets go in the other direction and assume, they are both extremely tight:

UTG+1 is jamming 99+, AQo+, AJs, KQs
CO is overjamming JJ+, AK, AQs

Result: Hero has 29,2% equity

Now lets tweak the tight scenario by removing AA and KK from UTG+1s range, since a lot of players would do something trappy like min-raising or limping with these hands from EP.

Result: Hero has 31,4% equity

Now lets explore the upper boundary off, how profitable this might be, if for instance UTG+1 is jamming wide being fed ud with his status as a short stack:

UTG+1 is jamming 66+. A9o+, JTo+, A4s+, K8s+, T9s+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 39% equity

Conclusion: Even in an extremely pessimistic scenario Hero is very close to breaking even, and in more realistic scenarios he is making either a slightly profitable or extremely profitable call. Unless its very important for Hero to stick around a bit longer in this tournament, the best decision is to call.

With 2 shoves in front of you, , you're facing premium pocket cards. JJ is a gambling hand, so if you feel lucky, having made the money, go for it, if pay jump isn't that large.
You see a lot of others here cautioning playing JJ. If you play poker and have never been bitten by JJ, you're fortunate.
So play JJ cautiously, it is a face card pocket pair, but it is tricky to play effectively.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Lets do some actual equity calculations in Equilab instead of all this guessing. First the pot odds. Being in small blind with a 12BB stack, Hero is paying 11,5BB to win a pot of around 38BB. Hero need 30,3% equity to break even on pure chip EV, and since everyone agree, there is no big ICM pressure here, let us just use that number. Let us also ignore, that a very small percentage of the time big blind will call as well, and it will be a 4-ways pot.

First I will assign some relatively wide but I think realistic ranges to both players:

UTG+1 is jamming 77+. AJo+, KQo, A9s+, JTs+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 36,89% equity

Now lets go in the other direction and assume, they are both extremely tight:

UTG+1 is jamming 99+, AQo+, AJs, KQs
CO is overjamming JJ+, AK, AQs

Result: Hero has 29,2% equity

Now lets tweak the tight scenario by removing AA and KK from UTG+1s range, since a lot of players would do something trappy like min-raising or limping with these hands from EP.

Result: Hero has 31,4% equity

Now lets explore the upper boundary off, how profitable this might be, if for instance UTG+1 is jamming wide being fed ud with his status as a short stack:

UTG+1 is jamming 66+. A9o+, JTo+, A4s+, K8s+, T9s+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 39% equity

Conclusion: Even in an extremely pessimistic scenario Hero is very close to breaking even, and in more realistic scenarios he is making either a slightly profitable or extremely profitable call. Unless its very important for Hero to stick around a bit longer in this tournament, the best decision is to call.

this is an awesome write up and use of equilab.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Lets do some actual equity calculations in Equilab instead of all this guessing. First the pot odds. Being in small blind with a 12BB stack, Hero is paying 11,5BB to win a pot of around 38BB. Hero need 30,3% equity to break even on pure chip EV, and since everyone agree, there is no big ICM pressure here, let us just use that number. Let us also ignore, that a very small percentage of the time big blind will call as well, and it will be a 4-ways pot.

First I will assign some relatively wide but I think realistic ranges to both players:

UTG+1 is jamming 77+. AJo+, KQo, A9s+, JTs+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 36,89% equity

Now lets go in the other direction and assume, they are both extremely tight:

UTG+1 is jamming 99+, AQo+, AJs, KQs
CO is overjamming JJ+, AK, AQs

Result: Hero has 29,2% equity

Now lets tweak the tight scenario by removing AA and KK from UTG+1s range, since a lot of players would do something trappy like min-raising or limping with these hands from EP.

Result: Hero has 31,4% equity

Now lets explore the upper boundary off, how profitable this might be, if for instance UTG+1 is jamming wide being fed ud with his status as a short stack:

UTG+1 is jamming 66+. A9o+, JTo+, A4s+, K8s+, T9s+
CO is overjamming 99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs

Result: Hero has 39% equity

Conclusion: Even in an extremely pessimistic scenario Hero is very close to breaking even, and in more realistic scenarios he is making either a slightly profitable or extremely profitable call. Unless its very important for Hero to stick around a bit longer in this tournament, the best decision is to call.

Your numbers came really close to what I had, 31% at worst 38% at best.

UTG+1, 14bb, shoving with AA. Every time. No 2x, but shove. What is the buy-in? $215? Here 88 also is a call. Imo..."very far from the final table". This is $10 max. Big MTT, no many regs yet. This guys can have such a wide ranges. And, if they don't, you are still OK. AJo snap over shove, 66 as well. So often...KQo, KJs...Come on...Nits...

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

First of all - if he's up against A/K and A/Q (best case scenario) he is at best 45%. Unlikely though, and the results show. My initial response was nearing FT - where I'm not putting big money on the line with shit JJs vs 2 opponents. You can make the call if ya want - and watch FT from the rail. LOL

However - my edit - being that this is not nearing FT with a short stack - easy call, and most likely lose, but still gotta gamble with this short of a stack.

'IF' he's up vs AK, AQ (< this is actually not the best case scenario.... there are many others that would be even better) He's 52%


"the results show" < this doesn't have much merit. Player's ranges could've been much different.

When there's no ICM implications I'd be more than happy to more than triple my puney stack in this spot instead of bein' a min-casher attempting to ladder up a tad.
Even if it's 'nearing' final table, I am probably never folding in this spot (of course it'd depend if there were some huge ICM implications.... ie. if it was a Turbo and there were a ton of super short stacks below 10bb's).
Folding and waiting for 'better'(?) spots is a losing way to play nlhe tournaments.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

'IF' he's up vs AK, AQ (< this is actually not the best case scenario.... there are many others that would be even better) He's 52%


"the results show" < this doesn't have much merit. Player's ranges could've been much different.

When there's no ICM implications I'd be more than happy to more than triple my puney stack in this spot instead of bein' a min-casher attempting to ladder up a tad.
Even if it's 'nearing' final table, I am probably never folding in this spot (of course it'd depend if there were some huge ICM implications.... ie. if it was a Turbo and there were a ton of super short stacks below 10bb's).
Folding and waiting for 'better'(?) spots is a losing way to play nlhe tournaments.

If it is near break even or break even, shouldn't folding make more sense? It is much easier to find a +EV spot moving forward, than going on a break even play.

Lets assume playing poker in general is a negative EV game because of tournament fees and rakes. If we only make break even plays, on average we will lose 10% ROI to rake fees.

Originally Posted by blix177

If it is near break even or break even, shouldn't folding make more sense? It is much easier to find a +EV spot moving forward, than going on a break even play.

Lets assume playing poker in general is a negative EV game because of tournament fees and rakes. If we only make break even plays, on average we will lose 10% ROI to rake fees.

I see your point - however hero has already cashed, assuming he has made his money back +rake he is now essentially freerolling the event. Any additional earnings are +EV so tripling up here and making a run to FT is a higher reward than risk choice here in this spot.

I originally thought the same as you - but I miss read the OP and thought this was nearing final table, in which case - I agree with you. But being far out from FT I think the reward outweighs the risk here.

Taking a break even spot does not prevent us from taking other and more profitable spots. We wont be able to find any spots in the tournament, if we bust, but this is compensated by the fact, that we stand to last longer and find more spots, when we tripple our stack. In top of that as I already said there is little edge to be found, when we are a short stack. If Hero fold, he is down to 11,5BB, so he dont have much time to look for spots, and typically people dont make huge mistakes facing a 10-11BB open jam.

With 38BB however its a whole different situation. Hero can last many orbits, unless he run into some kind of cooler, he can get involved in postflop play, and he can apply pressure to short stacks. So while difficult to quantify I think, there is more long term EV in being in one tournament with a 38BB stack than in being in 3 tournaments with a stack of 11,5BB in each of them. And really this is the way, we need to look at it. This is not a one-off like the WSOP main event, where if we bust, we cant play it again for an entire year.

The stage of the tournament matter though. If this was in the bubble or on the final table, where we have a chance of getting a payjump simply by watching other players bust, then there is much more value in surviving. However in the money but "far from the final table" the payout structure is usually very flat. If for instance 72 places get paid, then finishing as 36 might only pay 20% more than finishing as 72. And therefore there is no real value in simply surviving for another orbit or two, before for instance we jam A9s and get called by someone, who has QQ.