FOLD philosophy in tournaments

BogdanStark

BogdanStark

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Hey, dudes! Am I right, If I said: you can't win 1st - 3-rd places if you didn't make any HERO FOLD?
Hero fold - fold your QQ+ on the board 5 8 T, or AKs on the board 6s Js 3h, in situation when there are lot of opponents and very big bets are in play.
Yesterday I checked this theory personal on my skin. I counted that only on the second hour of the tournament I folded KK on the board with Ace, folded straight cause of pair on the river and there were 3 opponents, and folded King higher flush vs HUGE bet on the river.
And what would you think? As a result I win 2-nd place.
I will very happy, if you share your thoughts about correctness of this post and my decision. Maybe someone think the same))))
 
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taban13

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All right thing sometimes is to listen to your intuition.
 
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TheArnie

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It takes a lot of discipline to make folds like these (besides KK one, it's pretty usual imo) and they are a MUST if you want to have a deep run in tourney. I will admit, I sometimes struggle to fold even in easier situations. Like yesterday, we were left heads up at tourney, with me being slightly (5BB) in lead. I had AhQd, and flop was 5d7dAs. I procceded with usual 3/4 bet and got called, for a Jd to fall out on turn. Villain bet 3BB and I somehow stupidly convinced me that he could still be on a draw... and I pushed all in for him to turn over nut flush (KTd).
As I look today at this hand, it was definitely worst played in entire tournament. His range had me dominated, only hands of his range I could beat was AT. If I'd had discipline to not get married to my TPGK in heads-up, it could have been very different. But one slip-up in a tourney can cost you everything. Gotta cure ''he can't have it'' mentality.
TLDR; It takes a lot of discipline to hero fold but it is a must to finish deep, imo.
 
BogdanStark

BogdanStark

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It takes a lot of discipline to make folds like these (besides KK one, it's pretty usual imo) and they are a MUST if you want to have a deep run in tourney. I will admit, I sometimes struggle to fold even in easier situations. Like yesterday, we were left heads up at tourney, with me being slightly (5BB) in lead. I had AhQd, and flop was 5d7dAs. I procceded with usual 3/4 bet and got called, for a Jd to fall out on turn. Villain bet 3BB and I somehow stupidly convinced me that he could still be on a draw... and I pushed all in for him to turn over nut flush (KTd).
As I look today at this hand, it was definitely worst played in entire tournament. His range had me dominated, only hands of his range I could beat was AT. If I'd had discipline to not get married to my TPGK in heads-up, it could have been very different. But one slip-up in a tourney can cost you everything. Gotta cure ''he can't have it'' mentality.
TLDR; It takes a lot of discipline to hero fold but it is a must to finish deep, imo.

Yeah, discipline and sixth sense will help us in this case.
As for me, I try to listen myself when my mind start talking)) And often mind says me: HEY DUDE, DO YOU WANT FOLD AND CONTINUE FIGHTING FOR WINNING, OR MAKE CALL AND LOSE ALL YOUR CHEAPS ?
 
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butterstoch

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simple rule i play with is never push with a single pair, specially when facing a huge bet, keeps me in check and usually fold an inferior hand
 
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emperord201

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simple rule i play with is never push with a single pair, specially when facing a huge bet, keeps me in check and usually fold an inferior hand

Thanks for this advice.

I will defo use this to get better.
 
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emperord201

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Yeah, discipline and sixth sense will help us in this case.
As for me, I try to listen myself when my mind start talking)) And often mind says me: HEY DUDE, DO YOU WANT FOLD AND CONTINUE FIGHTING FOR WINNING, OR MAKE CALL AND LOSE ALL YOUR CHEAPS ?

Hero folds are a must or to be able at any moment to fold a strong hand, whether it's AA, a straight or flush is needed to win a tournament and takes a lot of experience, and discipline to say no and fold.

I find it becomes easier with experience and information to fold.

Keep it up!
 
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emperord201

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simple rule i play with is never push with a single pair, specially when facing a huge bet, keeps me in check and usually fold an inferior hand

Thanks for this advice.

I will defo use this to get better.
 
BogdanStark

BogdanStark

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Hero folds are a must or to be able at any moment to fold a strong hand, whether it's AA, a straight or flush is needed to win a tournament and takes a lot of experience, and discipline to say no and fold.

I find it becomes easier with experience and information to fold.

Keep it up!

Hey, be honestly, I can't fold pocket ACES in preflop all-in situation. Anyway...CAN"T do it...

But sometimes, good fold will be if there are several all-in before you, provided that you know this guys are tight and strong. Personally, maybe there is one situation when I can FOLD POCKET ACES.

Yes, if you talk about situation with board cards, then I can fold pocket Aces if I not strengthened my Aces, and my opponents (their must be several) continue raises....
 
Poker Orifice

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I think you might just be the next Negreanu /Helmuth combined!
Those hand-reading skillzz sound somewhat similiar to Negreanu & the '6th sense' sounds like 'sick' sense... maybe similiar to Helmuth's black magic?
 
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TheArnie

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Folding AA pre unless it's satellite is always a mistake. It can't be correct to fold them because they are the nuts at that point. Do you ever fold nuts?
 
Ljuk358

Ljuk358

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I won only one big tournament and I remember I folded JJ pre flop and it was good decision... Sometimes you must be truly to yourself and just fold it and don't thinking about it too much...
 
TimovieMan

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Well, I've been getting a lot further in tournaments since I started folding coinflips for stacks, so there's at least that.

The only real issue is that I don't want to appear weak by folding too much. I am getting better at folding decent hands on dangerous boards where there's a bet and a call before me on the river.
And I've stopped defending my blinds without good hands, which helps too. The more/better I fold, the better I seem to be doing...

This is a far cry from my fixed limit days where I had a WtSD% of over 40...
 
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BogdanStark

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TheArnie

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Why do you think pocket Aces are the NUTS in preflop? TRY this
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem

You can see, that if 3 opponents play against you, your pocket AA had only 52%

And of cause I never fold NUTS combination . . .

Nuts is best possible hand at that moment, so AA is nuts pre. If you flop a nut straight with 2 cards of same suit on flop, do you fold it too? Because while it's the nuts, it can oftenly be outdrawn by the river if board pairs or 3rd card of same suit comes out. I doubt there is any better play than shoveling money in pot with current nuts, be it,AA pre, flopped straight or top set with no straight or flush possibilities. I think it's hero fold if you fold, lets say flopped nut straight when board and action by river proves you're beat. However, folding current nuts just because you had AA cracked few times is definitely -EV.
You say that AA is only 52% in 4way pot. However, it's still massively +EV to go allin. Roughly 1/2 times youll lose your stack, but also 1/2 times youll quadruple it. Even in tourney, you might bust, but of a time after winning a 4way pot you'll be a serious threat at FT, if you win it at middle or late stage.
Also, it's most likely 52% against random hand, but normall youll be up against hands you dominate even more like Ax and lower PP's
 
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TheArnie

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Well, I've been getting a lot further in tournaments since I started folding coinflips for stacks, so there's at least that.

The only real issue is that I don't want to appear weak by folding too much. I am getting better at folding decent hands on dangerous boards where there's a bet and a call before me on the river.
And I've stopped defending my blinds without good hands, which helps too. The more/better I fold, the better I seem to be doing...

This is a far cry from my fixed limit days where I had a WtSD% of over 40...

Jamming with AA or KK is never a coinflip.
 
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Poker247

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One of the biggest improvements a player can make is better discipline. When you start looking at the long picture (especially in mtts), then folding marginally good hands in the face of big raises or even medium raises on a scary board becomes easier. That being said, getting your money in good is always the goal. The only time I fold strong pairs (JJ, QQ) is when my 6th sense kicks in or I'm at a final table with decent stack and there are laddering opportunities. Gl!
 
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hffjd2000

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If conditions like many players and big bets infront of me, I would likewise do the same.

Sure, I might be ahead on few plays but consider overall result, the decision is still good.

Good for them if they bluff me out.
 
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kennyhotkey

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You must be able to fall even with AA based on the situation:) good luck everyone
 
Poker Orifice

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Why do you think pocket Aces are the NUTS in preflop? TRY this
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem

You can see, that if 3 opponents play against you, your pocket AA had only 52%

And of cause I never fold NUTS combination . . .

so... with an oppurtunity to have our stack 'potentially' QUADRUPLE while being a 52% favourite... you don't see the benefit of this?

Why does he think AA are the NUTS in preflop? umm.. because they are?
 
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wowasenotrusov

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Although in what tournament you are involved what difference has the money between the 2nd and 3rd place in the tournament
 
BogdanStark

BogdanStark

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so... with an oppurtunity to have our stack 'potentially' QUADRUPLE while being a 52% favourite... you don't see the benefit of this?

Why does he think AA are the NUTS in preflop? umm.. because they are?

Ok, I see your position, and I agree with you! Aces is perfect hand with out any words.
However, in previous posts I'd want to convey the message, that pocket Aces often out of money. That is why, I can't consider Aces like Nuts preflop hand, because I find the ford NUTS - is perfect bringing money combination.
So how pocket Aces could be the NUTS preflop hand, when flop can beat you just for a moment?
 
BogdanStark

BogdanStark

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If conditions like many players and big bets infront of me, I would likewise do the same.

Sure, I might be ahead on few plays but consider overall result, the decision is still good.

Good for them if they bluff me out.

And what the strongest hand you ever folded with tears in eyes?
 
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