Focus on min cash, losing or gaining ROI?

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blix177

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How do you balance between min cash and your game? I am sure for some reducing risk can improve their ROI, since I see people defending blinds shove with 5BB with K10s 4 spots away from the money from a field of 1,000 by an opp from mid position.

Then we also have people saying they would fold AKs when the SB shove against the Hero in BB on the bubble.

I personally take the low variance route and have folded JJs, AK when I am really short stack but I know I will make it into the min cash. The value of min cash also matters, sometimes it is only 160% of buy-in, but sometimes I see them as high as 340% of buyin.

Also as we approach ITM, there is a high degree of exploitative play. If you know BB isn't going to defend unless it is top 5% of their hands it makes stealing a lot easier. But it makes restealing by other players much easier too.
 
mkdrummey

mkdrummey

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My focus will change depending on where I am chip wise approaching the bubble. If I'm quite short then my focus is on a min cash.
 
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blix177

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It is funny, I find myself in this exact position. If you are holding my hand here, do you shove or fold? You are 3 position away from the money. Buy in $2.20, min cash $4.80.

You are holding 9s, middle position 2 with 5.81BB.
 

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ph_il

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i was going to get into a lot of detail about this and how how it's had a positive affect on my mtt results, but i hate that it sounds like i'm bragging.

basically, i stopped caring about min-cashing to the point where i don't even pay attention to money bubble anymore because i don't care about it. i gave up easy, frequent min-cashes for much less frequent deep runs. it wasn't easy dropping an average itm of ~33% to ~12% but my roi improved greatly. i made more final tables, finish in top 3, and won more mtts in the span of 2 years than i did in ~6 years of playing prior to black friday. granted, the fields were much smaller than playing on pokerstars or full tilt, but i cannot deny that my results are because of a simple change i made.
 
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ph_il

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It is funny, I find myself in this exact position. If you are holding my hand here, do you shove or fold? You are 3 position away from the money. Buy in $2.20, min cash $4.80.

You are holding 9s, middle position 2 with 5.81BB.
i wouldn't let myself get blinded down to 5.8 bbs. if i lost a big hand and this is the result of it, that's different.

however, i'm still getting it in with 99 in this spot. it's pretty much guaranteed i'm getting called given my stack size but i'm more than willing to chance this risk:reward spot to double up. i wouldn't even know i'm near the bubble unless something like 'hand for hand in play' popped up and i'd jamming in this spot regardless.
 
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blix177

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i was going to get into a lot of detail about this and how how it's had a positive affect on my mtt results, but i hate that it sounds like i'm bragging.

basically, i stopped caring about min-cashing to the point where i don't even pay attention to money bubble anymore because i don't care about it. i gave up easy, frequent min-cashes for much less frequent deep runs. it wasn't easy dropping an average itm of ~33% to ~12% but my roi improved greatly. i made more final tables, finish in top 3, and won more mtts in the span of 2 years than i did in ~6 years of playing prior to black friday. granted, the fields were much smaller than playing on pokerstars or full tilt, but i cannot deny that my results are because of a simple change i made.

I would say even if you are not playing for min cash, do at least pay a attention to it because it is great for exploitative play. I a lot of player like me would play the low variance route and fold when near the bubble. It is a great position to blind steal and base on the meta game on your table it certainly can be a position to gain a load of chips.
 
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Fjarri

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The mathematical answer to this question is ICM (with FGS for more advanced spots), which will tell you how much you should value your current situation in a tournament.

Another way to phrase your question is: when does ICM start to have a noticeable effect? The answer is very complicated and may only be available through simulations. The good news is you can do these simulations on your own with e.g. ICMIZER or HoldemResources Calculator. These are quite inexpensive in terms of poker tools and are definitely worth their price for almost all players.

Generally, and especially on lower stakes, players are going to be way too tight near the bubble or big pay jumps, just waiting for you to pick your spots and exploit them. If you have good read on either the population or the specific players at your table, you can simulate their tighter ranges as well in the above mentioned software. Analyzing your hands like this can plug your gaps and teach you a lot about exploitative play against weaker players in ICM heavy situations.
 
hugh blair

hugh blair

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freerolls and low stakes am shoving all day long in a $100+ buy in game am folding as min cash is more important to me than flipping when more than likely your getting called trying to steal blinds by the bigger stacks.
 
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