Early in micro MTT: should you be more willing to fold good hands post flop?

A

Axmanace

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This is a reoccurring issue I’ve been having in early micro tournament (1-5$ buyin).

I’ll get a good hand and hit the flop - but my opponent will have kept a mediocre hand and hit better - forcing me to go all in or fold. (Such a hand that my pre-flop aggression should have weeded out in theory).

Example hand: I had AKo. Villain had K2s.
Blinds were 20/10. Average stack size 5k.

I raised pre-flop 300. Flop was K22 and guy pushes in. I call and go on to loose.

I thought the 300 bet should have been big enough to
fend off 2X hands. But that backfired.

How do you deal with that situation?
Do you assume if someone is going all in early they just hit with jank? Do you play those hands *more* aggressively preflop?

Looking feedback because it’s one area I need to sure up in tournament play.
 
EnigmaTTO

EnigmaTTO

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Well I think you just need to kind of assume that early on in the tournament people are gonna do weird stuff like this. I also find it really annoying and obnoxious, but at the same time the people who do this will usually play just like you described in your example. If they're jamming over your c-bet at the flop, it's probably safe to assume you're behind unless you've seen the same person make a play like that and they didn't have anything spectacular.
 
toots babos

toots babos

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If they're gonna call with absolute garbage then go all in pre. Some times you will lose when they get lucky but most of the time you're going to get a very nice early double up. Just make sure you have plenty of buy ins to withstand the variance.
 
F

fundiver199

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The short answer is yes. Postflop stack-off ranges depend on stack sizes, and early in a tournament they are usually deep. Most MTTs start with 100-167BB, and if blinds were 10/20 and an average stack 5.000, then this was even a very deep stacked situation with around 250BB effective. And in that situation you can pretty much only stack off the nuts or something very close.

That being said this hand is just silly, since you made a ridiculously large 15BB open raise, and then he still called and donk jammed the flop for several times the pot on K22. A good player would never do this, so in reality this hand dont even matter, and in real time I might also have gotten curious and locked him up. I think, there might be some wild bluff now and then or an overplayed KQ type hand, and if he put in 15BB preflop with a 2 in his hand and flopped trips, then more power to him.

Its much more important to learn how to play this situation again a good player. And you do that by opening to a normal size like 3-4BB and bet for value postflop. However if you get raised at any point, your focus should shift to getting to a cheap showdown, and you should not be willing to play for 250BB with just top pair in a single raised pot. So if at some point the opponent starts piling in chips, you need to be able to fold.
 
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popstani

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Raising 15 bb are to much, don’t do that. 3-4bb are good enough in the beginning of tournament. You need to find fold in some situations, like in your example, specially in the beginning. From my experience, when ever I fold hands like top pair in suspicious situations, I was running deep in the tournament, finishing on the final table and sometimes even wining tournaments. When you put 15bb pre flop, you are some kind obligated to that pot, and most of the time ends really bad for you.
 
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karl coakley

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This is a reoccurring issue I’ve been having in early micro tournament (1-5$ buyin).

I’ll get a good hand and hit the flop - but my opponent will have kept a mediocre hand and hit better - forcing me to go all in or fold. (Such a hand that my pre-flop aggression should have weeded out in theory).

Example hand: I had AKo. Villain had K2s.
Blinds were 20/10. Average stack size 5k.

I raised pre-flop 300. Flop was K22 and guy pushes in. I call and go on to loose.

I thought the 300 bet should have been big enough to
fend off 2X hands. But that backfired.

How do you deal with that situation?
Do you assume if someone is going all in early they just hit with jank? Do you play those hands *more* aggressively preflop?

Looking feedback because it’s one area I need to sure up in tournament play.


You should always be able to fold your hands. This type of thing is reoccurring because of holes in your game.

1. You over played your hand.

2. You don't know where you are at in the hand.

3. You have to stop going all-in.

Taking what you would know from your example (not the villain cards) lets take a look.

You raised too much. There just isn't enough in the pot. No antes, no blinds, what are you trying to win?

You got called and got a peice of the flop. This isn't a monster, you only have top pair. ONLY 1 PAIR. Is it likely the villain has a 2? I would say not, a 1/2 the pot bet is certainly due.

The villain shoves. At this point you have to STOP. You raised 15x and got called, on a K22 board the villain shoved, WHAT CAN I BEAT? KQ, KJ, K10? AA and KK have you crushed and are certainly in the range. The shove screams AA, KK, or a 2.

If you bet the pot you would only have 600 out of 5k in the pot. You really can't beat much, easy fold, you are beat. YOU ONLY HAVE 1 PAIR.

The all-in is a separate problem. If you go all-in you can win 1 pot, if you never go all-in you win the tournament. Let that sink in. If I never put at risk my last chip I CAN'T BUST OUT. Could you really do this? No. But this is the mindset you need in tournament play. You really need to avoid all-ins as much as possible.

If you called off 1/3 of your stack with this call it wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be unrecoverable. Your still playing. In a cash game you simply rebuy. In a tournament, your last chip means you are done. You Want to end your tournament with 1 pair When there are so many hands that have you beat?

Give it some thought. If you struggle with small pot poker join late with larger blinds. Before you put all your chips in slow down and think about what you beat and what beats you. Then decide if this is the hill you want to die on.
 
terryk

terryk

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The truth is,you overplayed your hand,,,raise 2.2 and play in out,,,you will never out-play 'stupid',,,so stop tryin. ;)
 
Adi8877

Adi8877

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This is a reoccurring issue I’ve been having in early micro tournament (1-5$ buyin).

I’ll get a good hand and hit the flop - but my opponent will have kept a mediocre hand and hit better - forcing me to go all in or fold. (Such a hand that my pre-flop aggression should have weeded out in theory).

Example hand: I had AKo. Villain had K2s.
Blinds were 20/10. Average stack size 5k.

I raised pre-flop 300. Flop was K22 and guy pushes in. I call and go on to loose.

I thought the 300 bet should have been big enough to
fend off 2X hands. But that backfired.

How do you deal with that situation?
Do you assume if someone is going all in early they just hit with jank? Do you play those hands *more* aggressively preflop?

Looking feedback because it’s one area I need to sure up in tournament play.


Depends on the opponent. As I have enough notes, played enough where I am regularly play micro MTTs, I rarely fold even if I got pot overbets, maybe allin straight away on the flop with 4-5x pot size. Back in the time, I was worry a bit about situations like this, but the profitable regulars don't do it, very rarely, I really saw it just few times from them. Otherwise, everybody else who does, plenty times, I guess around 85-90% have worse hand, all the kings with smaller kicker, plenty times pairs On a flop like this, they do it with all the pairs, also saw often Ax, basically with any kicker... strange, but happens, I do not understand them, but it is not my problem. So even if they have outs, (okay, they always have, but most of the times they have limited 2-3, or any backdoor straight, flush) they hit it rarely.

So how I recognized, even including those situations, when they hit set, full or have KK, AA in this given situation, I win 75-80% of these cases, do not mention, I double up early, so there are more further advantages of risking it, for me it is not even really risking anymore, as I know it is a massive + for me. If I lose, I lose, part of the game, I can live with that, especially if it is early stage, so I can rebuy - as I usually count with 1 rebuy, when I start a tourney, if rebuy allowed -, or move to the next one, if it is freezout.

However, the key for me who does it, and of course in other phases of the tourney, it can be way different...
 
LFC_yllnwa

LFC_yllnwa

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It is impossible to exclude crazy opponents from the tournament. They are everywhere. You must carefully study the opponent and remember that the game all in (before the river) it's always a huge risk to end the game and get out... It's better to drop a better hand than risk ending the game. Take your time, in long tournaments there are many players against whom you will have a lot of chances to win. The early stage is a good opportunity to expand the range of the game and a lot of players use this, so the top hands have less power, remember that. There is no need to take a risk and knock out an opponent immediately after the start of the tournament.
 
nuttea

nuttea

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This is a reoccurring issue I’ve been having in early micro tournament (1-5$ buyin).

I’ll get a good hand and hit the flop - but my opponent will have kept a mediocre hand and hit better - forcing me to go all in or fold. (Such a hand that my pre-flop aggression should have weeded out in theory).

Example hand: I had AKo. Villain had K2s.
Blinds were 20/10. Average stack size 5k.

I raised pre-flop 300. Flop was K22 and guy pushes in. I call and go on to loose.

I thought the 300 bet should have been big enough to
fend off 2X hands. But that backfired.

How do you deal with that situation?
Do you assume if someone is going all in early they just hit with jank? Do you play those hands *more* aggressively preflop?

Looking feedback because it’s one area I need to sure up in tournament play.
yes this is not a problem. work on your bet sizing. if you don’t want your opponents to drag their draws, then bet big bets - 70-80% of the pot or overbetting. on dry boards, the chance of catching the second pair is not as great as you think. look at how the professionals play hands on youtube.
 
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