CardsChat Freeroll Club: how to deal with exploitation?

Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
2,529
Awards
3
BR
Chips
349
Hi there CCers how's everyone? I have a hard doubt here and I need the community kindness and help.
I've been playing CC's freerolls for a couple of weeks and I am having serious problems to overcome some situations. (I know for sure that I am a weak player).
I am a cash student and I study the basics of MTT's and SNG's. I am not a good tournament player and I wish to improve my game. (I am not a good cash player too, lol)
Before further duo, let's jump into the difficulties that I've found playing CardsChat's freeroll.
This is not a critics to the Freerolls, for God's sake! I love the environment, it is very hard to play and fun, I am just trying to understand why some part of the population plays so loose and how do we defend against that. Respect always.

A) Many players are extremely loose aggresive, even in the first level of blinds. Which strategy you think is good against decent LAG's? How much should we be "leveling" against other leveling players?

B) Many players love to exploit using huge sizings: I see very often players opening 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, decreasing frequency, but still a great number of players tend to make a 3.5x raise IP, either short stacks or big stacks. They elect to open 3x, 4x in the Late Stages of the tournament. Why is that? How to deal with that?

C) A lot of players also exploit huge sizings postflop: we see players betting 100% pot in a 3bet pot, we see players that open 6x get two callers and go 80%, 120% in spots where it simply cannot be logic, so I wonder if these extremely polarized bet sizings, both preflop and postflop contains more bluffs than values. Should we be shoving or calling down lighter versus this kind of exploitation?

Summarizing, I think a real hard time to call down from the BB a 3x raise, I fold almost everything to this size. IMO, tournaments it's all about surviving. But we need to survive with dignity if we intend to get to the FT. By the same token, we cannot be very loose, because most of times in a tournament we will be short stacked (10-30 blinds) and, in some Late Stages of tournaments we can consider a stack of 18 blinds a huge ammount, that allow us to play at least one hand postflop and even to make cheap bluffs. If I am mistaken, please let me know.
Having just a couple of blinds turns the postflop game almost impossible because of the SPR: If we open 2x having 12 blinds of effective stack and get called we are already commited with almost everything we have. We must go because if we fold we would have only 10 blinds behind.
We cannot bluff postflop, because we opened 2x and now if we make a 2 blinds bet in the pot we have only 8 blinds behind and we give excellent odds for Villain either call flop to bluff turn/river or either check-raise/shove the flop itself.
If we bet 2x in the flop and our hand does not improve at all, and if we check the turn it is very strange, because now we have only 8 blinds behind and if we c-bet again it will be impossible to fold any river. So the natural move should be shoving preflop (because we have just a couple of blinds that not allows us a good playability postflop) when we are 12-15 BB short?
It seems to me that the style of playing of many opponents is based in one logic (and obvious) observation: we are neither paying for the entry, nor the rake. So everything we do is correct, because once in a while, we will reach the final table in position to fight for the position where the money really is: 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place.
I respect that, although I see the times we will get to the final table will be minimum (because I see players shoving preflop in the 1st level of blinds KJo, A2o, QTo, 22, you name it).

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
R

RollinFatties

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Total posts
18
Chips
0
This is my biggest gripe with freerolls. Players will shove pre-flop with complete garbage, especially in the early stages.

I typically play extremely tight and fold everything except the top of my range. When I do get a premium hand I play extremely aggressive. Pretty much if I'm going to play a hand from early position I have to be willing to shove to a 3 or 4 bet. If opening from the button or small blind I will play a little more loose, however I will fold to 3-bet unless I'm holding a premium hand.
 
B

bellicoso

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Total posts
549
Chips
0
A) I consider myself a LAG player and I can tell you nothing will make me consider hitting the brakes faster than if someone is more aggressive than I am. I swing for the fences when I open, and I have a wide range (NB! I do play specific hands from specific positions). However, while a majority of the time I can use this to my advantage, if another player 4-bets behind me (for example) I have to consider their range. Is it likely to be strong? Probably. Do I want to gamble? Nope. Fold. Next hand.

B) This is typical picking on the weak, in my opinion. The primary feeling from other players that I feel that I exploit the most is their fear. This can be anything in the game, but tends to be more aligned with a fear of potentially looking bad or making a bad play. Opponents would rather fold than look bad! LAG players, such as myself, have no problem with looking foolish from time to time, because most of the time, our style is completely advantageous. The rewards outweigh the risks in the long term. I'd rather win ten times and be called a donk once or twice, than just sit through a tourney and get eaten alive by the blinds and other players.

C) I would say you only want to call when you know for a fact your opponent is bluffing -- usually this means you have the nuts or pretty close to it. As your stack grows, you can, in turn, fire back more often against crazy bluffs. But you need to pick your spots at first. A good example is, when I've got two pair or a set or trips after the flop, I'm in it to win it! Woe unto my opponent with their crazy hand...

Now, here is something I think is really stopping you... you say you need to survive in a tournament and, specifically, you say you need to do it with dignity... Why is that? Survival over the long term -- meaning the winnings gathered from tournaments -- is indeed the goal. But on a tournament-to-tournament basis, in the one instance, who cares? Again, I'll take looking like a fool one or two times out of ten and looking like a master the rest of the time, rather than playing predictably and never making any progress.

Anyway, I just wanted to share because I really liked your post! Good questions and all. I wish you the best of luck going forward!
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,503
Awards
1
Chips
305
A) In the early phase of a freeroll a lot of players try to get a fast dubble up. I would not exactly call these players LAGs. They are usually either gamblers or people, who don’t want to spend their time on a freeroll, unless they have a big stack. Just do a little of the same. Play only your good hands, but play them strongly and without fear of busting early.

B) Oversized raised makes sense for value in games with a lot of inelastic calling stations. If you have AA preflop, and a 6BB open raise will get almost as much action as a mini-raise, then why not make it 6BB? Build the pot and make it really expensive for them to try and draw out on you. That being said a lot of the time someone oversizing their raise is just a bad player, who dont know how to size correctly. However you also say, you have a hard time defending your big blind against a 3X raise. That is certainly an issue, and 3X is not even an oversized raise. It is a perfectly sensible size to use, until stacks get short.

C) A bit of the same story as preflop. If the game is full of inelastic calling stations, and you have a great hand, then why not bet more? Get value and protect yourself from getting drawn out on. Its certainly not weighted towards bluffs, so if you are on the receiving end of this, then dont pay them off.
 
D

DS3

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Total posts
7,509
Awards
1
GB
Chips
212
The issue to grasp is that you are not playing (in many early cases) above the rim poker.

Some who play the CC freerolls do not care if they exit immediately. They do not care if they lose- they enjoy the gamble. Various arguments are made- primarily, it’s a waste of time trying to thread through a tournament without a big stack to wield.

So the choice becomes whether you want to adopt a similar style or not?

Regardless, if you are going to play a hand in the early stages, you need to fully commit. You will have already faced a big raise pre-flop, should know one is coming on the flop (dry board makes zero difference) and then the turn...and the river. A mix of aggression and ego.

If you feel you are more on the TAG side then stick to premium hands until the tables settle and you can broaden your range. Understand, quite often the aggression will not let up and you will find yourself blinding down. Regularly, many of these freerolls descend into little more than all-ins way before a potential cash because the tactic is one of the only tools you can employ to get some players to back off. Nonetheless, this is no guarantee either, so it still needs to be a strong hand.

The dilemma is that aggression works (period) but, it does not suit every player. Some are naturally inclined to the gamble and aggression and others are not. There is no magic button to press which turns you aggressive in an instant.

One tactic to use is to make notes. When playing, I have all the runners displayed (the tournament lobby) besides the table I am playing. I found within the first week of joining the club I could identify those who could build stacks quickly were often also the first players out.

I still do not watch the leader board as much as I watch the list of ‘finished’ players - there is as much if not more to be gleaned. It does not make them easier to play against necessarily, but it makes them easier to avoid. Within the first few orbits playing against such players you will be dragged into some very stupid pots if you are not careful.
 
Last edited:
slicheri93

slicheri93

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Total posts
1,108
Awards
6
Chips
3
Just play more freerolls. and try that to improve your game
maybe write down the mistakes you make and work on the problems one by one, read more about poker try books,
im sure there are people on this forum who started from freerolls and are now playing with average buy-ins.

Hope you improve your game!
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,334
Awards
10
GB
Chips
119
What a great, well-articulated post!

My suggestion would be to choose your spots wisely against these players, patience will pay if you can get action (no better player to attempt to do so against than a LAG).

In the early stages there isn't much pressure to play, you have 50bb, so you can wait for premium starting hands without worrying about folding impacting your stack. Late game is usually a different story..

That being said, are you playing position?

You are very self-deprecating about your poker ability in your post but it also sounds like you have a fair understanding of the game.

Keep studying and practicing, your confidence and skill will grow. :)
 
P

popstani

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Total posts
635
Awards
1
Chips
1
I agree with everything said before. I will add one thing, don’t go in a hand if you not willing to go all in, specially if you have 12BB, against LAG players
 
greatgame230

greatgame230

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 29, 2011
Total posts
915
Chips
0
Hi there CCers how's everyone? I have a hard doubt here and I need the community kindness and help.
I've been playing CC's Freerolls for a couple of weeks and I am having serious problems to overcome some situations. (I know for sure that I am a weak player).
I am a cash student and I study the basics of MTT's and SNG's. I am not a good tournament player and I wish to improve my game. (I am not a good cash player too, lol)
Before further duo, let's jump into the difficulties that I've found playing CardsChat's freeroll.
This is not a critics to the Freerolls, for God's sake! I love the environment, it is very hard to play and fun, I am just trying to understand why some part of the population plays so loose and how do we defend against that. Respect always.

A) Many players are extremely loose aggresive, even in the first level of blinds. Which strategy you think is good against decent LAG's? How much should we be "leveling" against other leveling players?

B) Many players love to exploit using huge sizings: I see very often players opening 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, decreasing frequency, but still a great number of players tend to make a 3.5x raise IP, either short stacks or big stacks. They elect to open 3x, 4x in the Late Stages of the tournament. Why is that? How to deal with that?

C) A lot of players also exploit huge sizings postflop: we see players betting 100% pot in a 3bet pot, we see players that open 6x get two callers and go 80%, 120% in spots where it simply cannot be logic, so I wonder if these extremely polarized bet sizings, both preflop and postflop contains more bluffs than values. Should we be shoving or calling down lighter versus this kind of exploitation?

Summarizing, I think a real hard time to call down from the BB a 3x raise, I fold almost everything to this size. IMO, tournaments it's all about surviving. But we need to survive with dignity if we intend to get to the FT. By the same token, we cannot be very loose, because most of times in a tournament we will be short stacked (10-30 blinds) and, in some Late Stages of tournaments we can consider a stack of 18 blinds a huge ammount, that allow us to play at least one hand postflop and even to make cheap bluffs. If I am mistaken, please let me know.
Having just a couple of blinds turns the postflop game almost impossible because of the SPR: If we open 2x having 12 blinds of effective stack and get called we are already commited with almost everything we have. We must go because if we fold we would have only 10 blinds behind.
We cannot bluff postflop, because we opened 2x and now if we make a 2 blinds bet in the pot we have only 8 blinds behind and we give excellent odds for Villain either call flop to bluff turn/river or either check-raise/shove the flop itself.
If we bet 2x in the flop and our hand does not improve at all, and if we check the turn it is very strange, because now we have only 8 blinds behind and if we c-bet again it will be impossible to fold any river. So the natural move should be shoving preflop (because we have just a couple of blinds that not allows us a good playability postflop) when we are 12-15 BB short?
It seems to me that the style of playing of many opponents is based in one logic (and obvious) observation: we are neither paying for the entry, nor the rake. So everything we do is correct, because once in a while, we will reach the final table in position to fight for the position where the money really is: 1st place, 2nd place and 3rd place.
I respect that, although I see the times we will get to the final table will be minimum (because I see players shoving preflop in the 1st level of blinds KJo, A2o, QTo, 22, you name it).

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
completely agree with this the only thing is that you just described perfectly what a freeroll is not only the free of CC all the free most players play that way that is what makes it complex but fun at the same time
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
2,529
Awards
3
BR
Chips
349
Thanks everyone!

Good morning CCers! I'd love to thank from the bosom of my heart to everybody who replied my post. Thank you for the patience and the very kind words. You have no ideia how much you helped me!
Sorry, for I am pretty nerd, and many times I exceed the limits of a regular text and write down too much.

I will comment the replies as soon as possible. If anybody else have anything more to say, please don't hesitate to do it! Very grateful for this amazing opportunity to be in the world's most helpful poker community! I learn a lot here and I will keep learning. Studying is the best thing one poker player can do, ever. :) I'm very glad to be part of this.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Alekxandrovi3

Alekxandrovi3

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Total posts
361
Chips
20
Playing in freerolls is very similar to the game at the micro Bain and medium.
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,334
Awards
10
GB
Chips
119
Was really happy we were tabled at the start yesterday, remember we were tabled previously (but before reading your post), and I was going to keep an eye on you so I could give you some feedback but sadly you were moved before anything interesting happened, lol. Always the way!

How did you get on last night?
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
2,529
Awards
3
BR
Chips
349
Was really happy we were tabled at the start yesterday, remember we were tabled previously (but before reading your post), and I was going to keep an eye on you so I could give you some feedback but sadly you were moved before anything interesting happened, lol. Always the way!

How did you get on last night?

Nice to read it buddy, thanks for your attention and care. I got pretty good last night, was eliminated in an awesome spot where I had JJ and flipped with A7s, standard :p
How about you last night?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,334
Awards
10
GB
Chips
119
Nice to read it buddy, thanks for your attention and care. I got pretty good last night, was eliminated in an awesome spot where I had JJ and flipped with A7s, standard :p
How about you last night?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

They always seem to flop that ace, eh? :D

Sounds like you felt a little more comfortable, which is great, keep getting it in with JJ v A7 and you'll do alright!

I just missed out on the final table, bust out with AKs v A9o, so pretty happy with that and 10th place isn't terrible...

Will you be playing this evening?
 
swoopdonk

swoopdonk

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Total posts
174
Awards
1
Chips
0
It makes sense to me that a lot of folks will over bet any 2 cards in a freeroll because they have nothing invested and the payoff is so small compared to the time involved.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
2,529
Awards
3
BR
Chips
349
gratitude

Hi there CardsChat community, nice sunday to everyone!
I would love to thank everybody who posted here. I am eternally grateful for this sui generis help of the population.
This week was very good, I got ITM 2 or 3 times and yesterday I get the 6th place in the CC 300 Weekly Freeroll, and I am grateful for you guys who dedicated a time to comment, criticize, amplify the spectrum of ideas!
Life can be beautiful! Respect always and good luck at the tables!
:love: Love is all :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Top