Calling shoves

[DarkWolfYoda]

I'm bringing this up because of a specific hand but I'm also interested in more general advice

I'm in a 1.50 sit and go 9 player tournament

Its the second hand in the tournament and everyone is evenly stacked. Everyone folds to me on the button except for 1 player in mp who limped in, I have AKo and raise 3 BB
SB folds and the big blind pushes, MP folds

So now my question is should I be calling this shove or not? I have a good hand and don't want to lose value but I also don't want to risk my entire tournament on one hand right at the start.

In this case I called villian had pocket Queens and I didn't hit a pair which was very frustrating but it made me question if maybe I made the mistake by over playing my hand so early.

To further press on this I'd like to learn more about when it's okay to risk your stack to shove? (aside from having a low stack like 15 or less BB)

Is a 50/50 ever worth it even with a deep stack or is that just gambling?

What hands against what ranges that would shove in X positions have a good enough EV to make a call proper?

I'm mostly talking about preflop pushes here but advice about shoving postflop is also welcome.

Thanks 😊 and good luck 👍

 

[marvinsytan]

easy fold for AK, but call with AA KK QQ early in the game, you can fold JJ and wait for an easier spot rather than gambling also

around 20bb you can already gamble with premium hands

30bb depends on your opponent reads, it's going to be player dependent

good luck

 

[DarkWolfYoda]

easy fold for AK, but call with AA KK QQ early in the game, you can fold JJ and wait for an easier spot rather than gambling also

around 20bb you can already gamble with premium hands

30bb depends on your opponent reads, it's going to be player dependent

good luck

This is really solid logic thank you I'll definitely start implementing this into my game.

 

[JordanH]

I hate calling shoves with any hand. It almost always ends up being a flip which is simply handing the outcome over to lady luck. I do it, but don't like doing it.

 

[ChubbySin]

easy fold for AK, but call with AA KK QQ early in the game, you can fold JJ and wait for an easier spot rather than gambling also

around 20bb you can already gamble with premium hands

30bb depends on your opponent reads, it's going to be player dependent

good luck

Perfect, I read a statement (I don´t remember if was from Sklansky or Brunson)...

"To call a shove (all-in) you have to put the villain in a range (Imagine the hands he could call) and compare to your hand, if your hand seems stronger, go ahead."

 

[YenRodriguez]

Getting premium hands at the start of tournaments is always a lottery. It's a question of whether you want to risk the variance going for or against. Greetings

 

[DiegoRamos]

I'm bringing this up because of a specific hand but I'm also interested in more general advice

I'm in a 1.50 sit and go 9 player tournament

Its the second hand in the tournament and everyone is evenly stacked. Everyone folds to me on the button except for 1 player in mp who limped in, I have AKo and raise 3 BB
SB folds and the big blind pushes, MP folds

So now my question is should I be calling this shove or not? I have a good hand and don't want to lose value but I also don't want to risk my entire tournament on one hand right at the start.

In this case I called villian had pocket Queens and I didn't hit a pair which was very frustrating but it made me question if maybe I made the mistake by over playing my hand so early.

To further press on this I'd like to learn more about when it's okay to risk your stack to shove? (aside from having a low stack like 15 or less BB)

Is a 50/50 ever worth it even with a deep stack or is that just gambling?

What hands against what ranges that would shove in X positions have a good enough EV to make a call proper?

I'm mostly talking about preflop pushes here but advice about shoving postflop is also welcome.

Thanks 😊 and good luck 👍

Right after position and how many people are in the hand, you need to know who you are playing against.

If you don't have at least 300 hands at least, you don't have an accurate analysis of your opponent's range.

But as already mentioned, your AK is an easy fold.

You only need to call with QQ+, unless you are dealing with someone who is making continuous all-in moves. Otherwise, don't waste energy thinking.

 

[Jdawglet]

So to follow up on the original post…did they over play the AK? Should they have just called or was the raise the right play with the info on hand?

 

[NightStalker]

Early stages, AK is easy fold.

 

[Jdawglet]

AK

Why does it matter at what stage of the tournament? Is it because early on has a lot of aggressive players who get lucky with garbage?

 

[slothi]

For me in such a situation it is important to have some information about / history with this player. If I don’t have them I mostly fold AK cause I don’t want to flip in the first hand.

 

[najisami]

Lets look at it from a different angle. We all know that you can lose the hand even if you had AA (not saying you should fold them). It's only the 2nd hand in the tourney and you don't have AA. Not even KK or any kind of made hand for that matter. AK is definitely a fold in that situation.

 

[blueskies]

How deep are the starting stacks? 100bbs? 75?

I don't have a problem calling unless you know villain to be extremely tight and would be only shoving with AA/KK. But really, who is that dumb to shove AA in that spot? To win 3 bbs?

Your AK is only in deep doo doo against AA, and in bad shape vs. KK. Against the rest it's a coinflip. And you could be up against AQ or if villain is a moron, AJ/AT.

If it's me, I am looking to double up early. If I bust out 9th, whatever.

It's better than losing on the bubble.

To win, you have to take chances. You have to win chips. That's a good spot to do it.

 

[NWPatriot]

I am not a big fan of all-in pre-flop. I just don't ever want to reduce my tournament to 50-50 coin flip. There are a ton of ways to lose money with those kinds of odds. I have chosen poker so that I can control my destiny to a higher degree than 50-50. And it isn't very hard to be patient and find a much better spot than 50-50 to use our chips.

Pre-flop we only "know" 2 out of the 9 cards that matter in the hand (22% known). The 5 board cards and our opponents 2 cards make up the rest. We don't know very much at all.

FYI: against a tight 7% range:

1. AA has ~82% equity
2. KK has ~72% equity
3. QQ has ~62% equity
4. JJ has ~53% equity
5. AK has ~53% equity

Against a TT+ pocket pair only range:

1. AA has ~81% equity
2. KK has ~81% equity
3. QQ has ~81% equity
4. JJ has ~81% equity
5. AK has ~44% equity

This information shows us that AK is a coin flip at best, regardless of what range we think the opponent has. I need better than a coin flip for my tournament life. It is interesting to see how our various big pocket pairs do against a pocket pair range vs a range with a lot of A's or K's still in it. As many others have said: what do we know about this opponent and what he is capable of shoving with.

Of course when we are short stacked, shoving is the only way to get any fold equity so we have to accept these 50-50 hands when we are in trouble.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[NDRWTRLGC]

as always, it depends

it depends on a lot of things that are solely up to you to consider and implement

I would say mainly whether you want to gamble or not. even if you think you're 50/50 and even to win, your risk tolerance will define a lot of these situations.

I don't think there is a correct answer. just opinions. hope that helps

 

[Negan92222]

I hate calling shoves with any hand. It almost always ends up being a flip which is simply handing the outcome over to lady luck. I do it, but don't like doing it.

I am still new to poker enough that I still struggle to throw this hands away, and from my experience it really is more or less 50/50.
I have been experiencing problems with high value pocket pairs too on the button.
Alot of loosing but such is a gambling website...