Calling all-in's for a large percentage of your stack?

whowantwhat

whowantwhat

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I often find myself in situations in MTTs like this:

Where I have a decent sized stack like 30-50bb, it's not near the bubble where there's huge ICM pressure. Someone before me with a large percentage of my stack (like 20-30bb) goes all in for one reason or another

If I have AA or KK I feel happy to go all in without any remorse. Or if they had like a shorter stack like 10-15bb, they're usually shoving with worse hands so I am happy to call

However when I have a hand like AK, AQ, QQ, JJ etc which are still good, I always feel bad after I call which I "think" was a correct call, but I lose the hand and lost like 80% of my stack.

Cuz all of sudden I went in with AK and I lose to some BS hand like 99 or 66 or AQ and now I went from being in a good spot with a nice stack to a 10-15 bb stack and I'm basically push/fold situation

Am I just being results oriented? or is there a strategic way to decide if I should fold hands like AK, QQ, JJ etc
 
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fundiver199

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Am I just being results oriented? or is there a strategic way to decide if I should fold hands like AK, QQ, JJ etc

ICMizer can tell you, exactly what hands you are supposed to call with, assuming that your opponents are playing well. Assuming conventional action like someone opening and someone rejamming for 20BB, these are certainly spots, where it can be completely fine to fold AQ, if you are not yet involved in the action. To fold AK I would generally need to see multible all-ins for 20BB or more ahead of me.

Just to give an example, if UTG min-raises, and UTG+1 jam for 19BB, then MP is only supposed to overjam for 27BB with AK or JJ+. So if you have anything less than AA or KK, there is clearly no reason to get involved. With AK you are at best splitting with another AK or flipping slightly behind with QQ or JJ, and you also need to worry about both UTG and UTG+1. Often you will end up in a really bad spot like being against QQ and another AK or against AQ and KK, where AQ block one of your outs.
 
NWPatriot

NWPatriot

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I fall into the same trap, thinking I can "afford" to call an all-in in spots like this. Even when the shover has a poor pocket pair, I am still behind 45%-55% so I must catch a card to win.

The numbers seem to be there, but in my head, I think this is a bad play. Even though I think it is a bad play, i still do it more than I should and I go from being above the chip average to being below the chip avg. Arghhh.
 
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300HPGOD

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Assuming we have nothing on the villain then I think it comes down to the stack sizes as in my opinion there is a huge difference between 30BB and 50 BB and if the villain has 17BB or 30 BB. I think a lot of the time when you are above 35BB you can just fold AK and AQ without much worry. It is the QQ and JJ that are rough on the decision making. If I have 30 BB and someone jams in front of me for less I am usually calling. It would have to be a nitty player for me not to call as I am willing to get it in with 30 BB. Take a scenario though where we are at 50BB with QQ and someone shoves 31BB or rejams this amount. Then I am not feeling near as good with QQ and it would come down to what I know or think I know about the opponent. JJ is in the same category as I dont think it is typically bad to get 30 BBs in with JJ but more than that becomes an issue. My advice would be whatever you know about the opponent, use it and dont discount the little information you have (meaning if you see villain acting a bit crazy but only for 15 hands that is still info you can use if you have no other reads). From that info, make your decision based on your stack and hand strength. If you dont even feel it with AQ or AK those can be folded. With QQ or JJ it will come down to your stack depth. 30 or less BB you should not be too afraid of getting them in where 35BB or more you can jam or fold depending on how you are feeling at that moment.
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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Don't think as much in terms of percent of your stack; try to think in terms of how well you're doing against your opponent's range.

In addition to what Fundiver says above, I'd add that overbettors are normally on a capped range. If you have 30bb and AA, why shove instead of trying to get paid? (It can happen of course, just less likely.)

This is why hands like 99 can actually do very well against a player who overbet shoves pre-flop. If they have overcards it's fine to flip since you'll usually have a slightly equity edge and some overlay from the blinds and antes. But when they have a pair, it's much more often one like 77 than QQ+.
 
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Jim_Saras

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Call a shove?

You need to know your opponent's shoving range to make a correct decision. If you think they are shoving really tight then you should only call AA KK QQ or AK. I think it's best to not go all in on a flip. It's better to have an edge based on the information you have on them. But even if they shove light a hand like KJ for example: is usually close to a flip against live cards like AQ.
 
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MakTrue

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I often find myself in situations in MTTs like this:

Where I have a decent sized stack like 30-50bb, it's not near the bubble where there's huge ICM pressure. Someone before me with a large percentage of my stack (like 20-30bb) goes all in for one reason or another

If I have AA or KK I feel happy to go all in without any remorse. Or if they had like a shorter stack like 10-15bb, they're usually shoving with worse hands so I am happy to call

However when I have a hand like AK, AQ, QQ, JJ etc which are still good, I always feel bad after I call which I "think" was a correct call, but I lose the hand and lost like 80% of my stack.

Cuz all of sudden I went in with AK and I lose to some BS hand like 99 or 66 or AQ and now I went from being in a good spot with a nice stack to a 10-15 bb stack and I'm basically push/fold situation

Am I just being results oriented? or is there a strategic way to decide if I should fold hands like AK, QQ, JJ etc


Good day!
I believe that you are doing the right thing in the above situations.
Of course, it all comes down to details. And sometimes you have to fold hands like QQ or JJ. But in general, if you do not risk leaving the tournament after such a call, and the bubble is about to burst, then I would do the same. :cool:;):cool:
 
elizeuof

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In this situation I will prefer to fold almost all my range, unless if I have enough reads about what are the range that the villain are shoving...

With 50BB you can wait for a better spot, with less than 20BB you will be in a different situation, anyway, sometimes you can have enough reads to decide what range you need to use against these players, but you need to observe the others players that can get involved with a better range. generally when I am playing in ITM I will more able to wide my range.
 
theheeb1984

theheeb1984

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For me playing in a tournament, it depends on where I am in the action that adds the factor of call or fold. If there is another caller or several left after me and I am sitting on QQ or JJ or AQ similar type hand, I can find a fold but do it somewhat tiffed.

Let others lose their chips or attempt to thin the field themselves. My objective in a tournament is to build my stack and outlast. I am not focused on knocking others out as that is a natural occurrence in any tourney.
 
Jon Poker

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ICMizer can tell you, exactly what hands you are supposed to call with, assuming that your opponents are playing well. Assuming conventional action like someone opening and someone rejamming for 20BB, these are certainly spots, where it can be completely fine to fold AQ, if you are not yet involved in the action. To fold AK I would generally need to see multible all-ins for 20BB or more ahead of me.

Just to give an example, if UTG min-raises, and UTG+1 jam for 19BB, then MP is only supposed to overjam for 27BB with AK or JJ+. So if you have anything less than AA or KK, there is clearly no reason to get involved. With AK you are at best splitting with another AK or flipping slightly behind with QQ or JJ, and you also need to worry about both UTG and UTG+1. Often you will end up in a really bad spot like being against QQ and another AK or against AQ and KK, where AQ block one of your outs.


This would be very close to what I would tell you in this spot. Even if you dont pay for icmizer you can run one free hand every single day so the value there is immensely high. Most of the player field are either shoving too wide, shoving too tightly and calling off way too tight. Icmizer is the perfect tool to familiarize yourself with these situations that come up frequently - and the more spots you run the more familiar you get with these spots and the more you will know what to do.

I am not an affiliate by any means - theres just great value to be had in this program. I think a program like HM2 or PT4 are the most essential programs to any online player taking the game seriously - not necessarily for the HUD - but for their ability to log your hands for review and to log your stats to see how you are playing. The 2nd most valuable tool/program for any serious player should be icmizer -- if you have the paid version and you run it as frequently as you can - the sheer value it brings to the table will make you the money you spent on it back within that year. I know my paid version (just the basic version) made me money within about 3 months. The more you know these spots, the better you will become and the more money you will make. To anyone reading this response- if you want to step up your game - i highly recommend you spend a little and get this program - take the purchase seriously and use the hell out of this thing and it WILL make you money.
 
N

No Bologna

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No Bologna

I hate it, even with the best hand in poker. You can't tell me you haven't gone, or called all in and gotten beat buy a small pair that hit for a set. No improvement for your aces and you lose. I hate it!
 
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fundiver199

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I am not an affiliate by any means - theres just great value to be had in this program. I think a program like HM2 or PT4 are the most essential programs to any online player taking the game seriously - not necessarily for the HUD - but for their ability to log your hands for review and to log your stats to see how you are playing. The 2nd most valuable tool/program for any serious player should be icmizer -- if you have the paid version and you run it as frequently as you can - the sheer value it brings to the table will make you the money you spent on it back within that year. I know my paid version (just the basic version) made me money within about 3 months. The more you know these spots, the better you will become and the more money you will make. To anyone reading this response- if you want to step up your game - i highly recommend you spend a little and get this program - take the purchase seriously and use the hell out of this thing and it WILL make you money.


I agree. My subscription to ICMizer is still fairly new, but I have already learned quite a bit from working with the program. It has not really shown up in actual results yet, but as we all know, variance in tournaments is huge.

I will also add, that if you have this program for a year and work with it regularly, then there is probably less need to renew your subscription, unless you are a full time professional player. You learn the most in the beginning, and when you have plugged the same sort of spots into the program repeatedly, you get less and less surpriced by its output. Which is sort of the whole point, since you can not use it during play.

When I played cash I had PokerSnowie for a year, which I feel helped me a lot. But I was using it less and less often, so when the license expired, I did not renew it. It might end up the same way with ICMizer, especially if they keep the one free hand per day policy.
 
Evan Jarvis

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I often find myself in situations in MTTs like this:

Where I have a decent sized stack like 30-50bb, it's not near the bubble where there's huge ICM pressure. Someone before me with a large percentage of my stack (like 20-30bb) goes all in for one reason or another

If I have AA or KK I feel happy to go all in without any remorse. Or if they had like a shorter stack like 10-15bb, they're usually shoving with worse hands so I am happy to call

However when I have a hand like AK, AQ, QQ, JJ etc which are still good, I always feel bad after I call which I "think" was a correct call, but I lose the hand and lost like 80% of my stack.

Cuz all of sudden I went in with AK and I lose to some BS hand like 99 or 66 or AQ and now I went from being in a good spot with a nice stack to a 10-15 bb stack and I'm basically push/fold situation

Am I just being results oriented? or is there a strategic way to decide if I should fold hands like AK, QQ, JJ etc

Given the choice it's certainly better to be pushing all in than calling an all in in MTTs. That being said you don't always have the choice and it's important to take +EV spots when you can.

Alex Fitzgerald talks a lot about this in his book "the myth of poker talent" speaking about the importance of 'stack management' in tournaments (which is what you're referring to). And the idea that the more of your chips you are risking the higher your % edge should be.

That being said, in most cases if you can find a 3-5% edge on your opponents range you should probably take it. Situations like that with such a high positive expectation don't come around very often!


The exceptions may be if say you are second and the chip leader is pushing on you and everyone else is extremely short stacked (and you are near or at the final table). In this case your stack has a lot of value because you can easily survive and move up the payout structure for meaningful money.

In these cases a concept called 'risk premium' is very helpful in determining if a risk is worth taking. The idea is that it represents the ICM pressure you are facing and you can add it to your math equation as kind of a 'handicap' needed to make a profitable call.

ICMIZER is a program that includes this information and studying the sit n go coach in there will be very helpful for getting this concept down.

All that being said, early stages, mid stages, even late stages of the tournament the risk premium is rarely much of a factor. So unless it's final table kinda stuff you're probably doing just fins in taking these spots where you're a slight favorite and just getting unlucky.

Hope that helps!
 
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alien666dj

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Calling is possible only if you know your opponent well and Call is no more than 1% of the stack.
 
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