This is a discussion on Betting Sizing in MTT vs Cash within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; I played online poker back in the mid 2000s when it was still in the golden age of online poker. I however played recreationally back
I played online poker back in the mid 2000s when it was still in the golden age of online poker. I however played recreationally back then. I remembered whether it was cash or mtt... bet sizing was always on the bigger side. Such as pot size bets were considered normal. I do know back then players were very bad even the best players compared to now.
However, it seems like the last few years, the bet sizing in mtt and sng has been much smaller than before. I recalled how playing sng or mtt... at 50/100 level with 2k stacks, raising to 3x or 300 is considered standard and normal. Now it would be min raise or 2.1x or 2.2x. However postflop, it seems like mtt players rarely bet big on the flop anymore. I would watch twitch on some players and their preset bet sizing amts on the flop would be 38%, 42%, 45% and 60%. First off, how long has this lasted for? I know right before BF, when i played sngs... most bet sizing was not like this at least for my sngs. However even now, i rarely see players cbet more than 60 percent of the pot. Everything seems to be 40-50% of the pot. Many times you see 33-36% bet size on the flop or turn. Back then a good bet size on the flop was between 1/2 to 2/3rd the pot. However, is it completely wrong for this to be done now? Thing is if theres a flush draw on the flop, even betting 1/2 the pot is pretty small though.
I don't play cash game but are cash game bet sizing still similar to back many years ago? I mean you rarely see bets smaller than 1/2 the pot. You would see lot of 3/4 and pot size bet and that is standard. I do know that bet sizing in mtt is smaller than cash b/c well stacks are much smaller in mtt. However... anyone notice that the bet sizing is still pretty small in mtt where players have 100bb +? I mean if you have a big hand... im not sure why you are betting 38% of the pot on the flop. Im curious but what are everyones preset flop size betting like on stars? They give you stars hotkey preset betting shortcuts.
For me, i would do 35%, 1/2 pot, 2/3rd pot, 3/4 pot on stars hotkey bets. However, i rarely if ever see anyone pot size bet anymore unless its the river where they are betting a monster or betting a bluff. Im curious how much bet sizes does everyone have? Such as you either bet 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 35%, 38% pot etc. I like to know whats the most popular ones and probably the best ideal bet size options.
Also curious about cash as well if anyone have opinion on this.
I asked this question in a previous thread and never got a response, but I am also trying to figure this one out. I see a lot of 2-2.5x in tourneys after the blinds are up and the antes are in play and I wanted to know why people bet certain amounts. Early stage too. Why do some opt for 2.5x and some do a full 3x. I know its important to keep sizing consistent as to not give away any info, but the correct amount eludes me...unless you have player stats or know villain is a fish then you can bet larger to extract more value.
I personally think that smaller raise sizes are more suited to laggy type players while larger raises are more suited to TAGs. When playing LAG you want to play a lot of small pots and generally win them without getting to showdown, this is done by keeping the pot small so if needed you can fire three barrels without destroying your stack. You also need to know when to shut down post flop as your are keeping people in the pot by not charging them a lot to draw.
When playing less hands you are obviously playing a much stronger range, so you want to extract as much value from other players pre flop, and charge them for their draws on the flop/turn.
Early in MTTs, I prefer to bet a lot larger in the 67% range post flop (hand dependant of course). Quite frankly, I feel betting any smaller won't credit my hand with the equity it deserves. I only want to extract maximum value given my hand is top-par. I also find that most players don't really mind the bet sizing as I still get called down a good percentage of the time. This being said, I also open x3 Early in the tourney, and only with primo or value hands.
However in the Middle Stages, I really don't mind betting 40-55% of the pot with a solid hand. I think to myself, "What can I bet that my opponent will call, to trap him in the future streets." By trapping I generally mean that the Pot is near, equal, or over his stack after the turn (hence trapping him to auto Allin the river). At this point the Villain is giving himself 1000 reasons to call even his mediocre hands. In this scenario, traditional betting (65%) would more than likely scare off the opponents mediocre hands, and only keep his strong hands, as well forcing the villain allin before the river with his strong hands; ergo giving you fewer decisions and no room to maneuver.
yes, bet sizes have gotten smaller over the years in both cash and MTT...but it is even more obvious in MTT.
3bet sizing has also gotten smaller. and 4bet sizing is usually the minimum, or all in. (this is all very dependent on effective stack size of course).
this is a function of the average stack size in tournament. so in the first levels when everyone has 100+bb people tend to 3x raise a lot, and make pot sized bets post flop. As the blinds increase bet sizing decreases. it actually makes sense if you think about it.
the trend is following to the cash games a little bit...but not nearly as ubiquitously. There are sill guys who love to open 5-8x in cash every hand. but 2.5-3x is a lot more common in cash. And there are some people who actually LOVE to min raise in micro stakes cash....personally I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a rusty nail than min-raise in micro stakes cash....but to each his own.
luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity
They bet this way to minimize short term variance. Only works if everyone is doing it. Watch some high stakes MTT at SCOOP, you'll see tons of min bets even on the turn. 1/2 the pot is the new pot sized bet there. The whole idea is to surrender value and charging drawing hands in order to improve survivabity.
It's like a way to play post flop with short or medium stacks (25-50 BB). If you play with cash game bet sizing at 50 BB, you might get pot comitted with air at some point. Having to choose between a double barrell and committing 30% of your stack with air.
This is the game changing to MTT players playing more post flop. Also no point of betting the pot or even 75%. It feels like shoving to the one that is to call a bet like this.
I don't see cash games going that way. If you're deep and can top up/rebuy, you don't want to take min value and don't want people drawing on your hand.
Interesting thread. I'm curious to see if anybody will post a more comprehensive reply to this question? Smaller bets to reduce variance and save chips makes a lot of practical sense. But what about denying opponents the correct odds to draw? This situation has often put me on the spot. For example, suppose we are in the mid stages of an MTT and the pot is large. We have AK OOP and hit our Ace on the flop of [A 6 7]. Let's say based on the flop texture, our opponen'ts range and their position we put them on an open ended straight draw (Just for example's sake) . We know they have a 17% chance of hitting their draw so what size bet do we need to use to comfortably deny them the odds to draw? Suppose they have a straight and flush draw (15 outs) - 53% approx equity on the flop. Does this mean that based on MTT small bet strategy, it is incorrect to make a large bet that will deny them the odds to draw? How would you handle this situation? I've seen a lot of those tiny 0.2x / 0.3x cbets in MTTs more and more over the past few years and I understand the whole "Let's save chips" mentality.
But my three questions to the MTT forum today are:
1. How does it save chips in the long run, to cbet so small that you give your opponents the correct odds to draw and bust you?
2. What sizes do you use during the different stages and why?
3. Are the bet sizes you've chosen enough to force your opponents to make a mistake by calling?