Best player's stats

[theANMATOR]

In your opinion what do the best players stats look like?
I'm specifically talking about tournament players - and their VPIP/PFR/3BET.

I'm sitting here looking at 3 of my tables, all MTTs.

My stats in them at this time are
21/10/3
26/17/0
23/17/4

I'm sure we all have opinions, and the GTO'ers probably have some stats that have been solved - or some such assisted opinions.

Reviewing my stuff - it seems I'm always right around 20ish/15ish/ and my 3bet ranges on average 3-10.

I'm pretty sure my 3bet is low compared to other players who's primary strategy is aggression, however lately I've enjoyed allowing my aggressive opponents to pretend they have the nuts - when in actuality - I have solid reads on them and letting them give away chips to me has been extremely +EV.
It seems I have been able to capture better reads playing like this - I'm not saying I'm playing passive - I just don't see logic in inflating pots - with bluffs, or strong but not nutted hands. Also - checking behind with TTs - QQs has really allowed me to capture stacks on rivers when A/J thinks his TPTK is the nuts, as well as get away when it is ABSOLUTELY obvious I'm beat.

Anyway - what is the best player stats - in your opinion. I'm certainly not saying mine are exceptional - I'm just giving a foundation for us to jump off with this discussion.

 

[gardin555]

It will depend how many hands does the software have to reflect the most real numbers possible.
I think the third option seems a regular player: 23/17/4
I use to compared vpip/pfr one range aprox 10 numbers between them, to consider like a solid player. And I think 4 is a good number of aggressiveness 3bet, too
The stats is just a reference, because the players are adapting his game to the opponents constantly, they have your stats too.
Its only my opinion. Good luck!

 

[Luvepoker]

While the stats can help determan a lot I dont think you can just determan what stats make a great player.

Look at the history of the game. At one time Dan Harrington was considered one of the best out there, many today talk of him as a nitty player. Gus Hanson was once considered reckless player, but look at what both players achieved in the playing careers. There statistic were very different but both great players for sure. While its much more likely a player plays 30% of hand may not be a great player, or a player's playing 10% of hands may not be great, its much more about how they read the table and play post flop that matters so much more.

To pick one of your option i would say 23/17/4 would be it.

 

[StealTheButton]

In your opinion what do the best players stats look like?
I'm specifically talking about tournament players - and their VPIP/PFR/3BET.

I'm sitting here looking at 3 of my tables, all MTTs.

My stats in them at this time are
21/10/3
26/17/0
23/17/4

I'm sure we all have opinions, and the GTO'ers probably have some stats that have been solved - or some such assisted opinions.

Reviewing my stuff - it seems I'm always right around 20ish/15ish/ and my 3bet ranges on average 3-10.

I'm pretty sure my 3bet is low compared to other players who's primary strategy is aggression, however lately I've enjoyed allowing my aggressive opponents to pretend they have the nuts - when in actuality - I have solid reads on them and letting them give away chips to me has been extremely +EV.
It seems I have been able to capture better reads playing like this - I'm not saying I'm playing passive - I just don't see logic in inflating pots - with bluffs, or strong but not nutted hands. Also - checking behind with TTs - QQs has really allowed me to capture stacks on rivers when A/J thinks his TPTK is the nuts, as well as get away when it is ABSOLUTELY obvious I'm beat.

Anyway - what is the best player stats - in your opinion. I'm certainly not saying mine are exceptional - I'm just giving a foundation for us to jump off with this discussion.

This is the smartest, most logical thing I have read all week.

 

[theANMATOR]

While the stats can help determan a lot I dont think you can just determan what stats make a great player.

Look at the history of the game. At one time Dan Harrington was considered one of the best out there, many today talk of him as a nitty player. Gus Hanson was once considered reckless player, but look at what both players achieved in the playing careers. There statistic were very different but both great players for sure. While its much more likely a player plays 30% of hand may not be a great player, or a player's playing 10% of hands may not be great, its much more about how they read the table and play post flop that matters so much more.

To pick one of your option i would say 23/17/4 would be it.

You make a great point Luv - regarding the contrast in two notable players.
It seems you may have pointed out a flaw in all the HUDs available for us to use.
LUCK is not a track-able stat. LOL I'm specifically point to Gus here - well - I guess we could deduce luck from his stats 65/60/45 !!! lol

I don't know of many other players who were as lucky as Gus has been. His aggression certainly put his opponents on their back foot, however - I saw him get lucky more times than I saw him play well. Two examples come to mind - when he called a jam on the flop on a final table of an early HPT with Ten high, and then again when he was just going aggro vs the field of crushers in that league game - I can't remember the name. He literally got it all in bad - because he had nothing to lose - he was in last place - and needed to double up like 5 or more times just to be competitive with the chip leaders - welp - he did - got it in bad every hand - and lucked out to win every hand.

I think Gus is an extreme example though - and most players in this era - who play like Gus - are the players who are firing 6+ bullets in every tourney they play. They are the prize pool builders.

 

[nuttea]

In your opinion what do the best players stats look like?
I'm specifically talking about tournament players - and their VPIP/PFR/3BET.

I'm sitting here looking at 3 of my tables, all MTTs.

My stats in them at this time are
21/10/3
26/17/0
23/17/4

I'm sure we all have opinions, and the GTO'ers probably have some stats that have been solved - or some such assisted opinions.

Reviewing my stuff - it seems I'm always right around 20ish/15ish/ and my 3bet ranges on average 3-10.

I'm pretty sure my 3bet is low compared to other players who's primary strategy is aggression, however lately I've enjoyed allowing my aggressive opponents to pretend they have the nuts - when in actuality - I have solid reads on them and letting them give away chips to me has been extremely +EV.
It seems I have been able to capture better reads playing like this - I'm not saying I'm playing passive - I just don't see logic in inflating pots - with bluffs, or strong but not nutted hands. Also - checking behind with TTs - QQs has really allowed me to capture stacks on rivers when A/J thinks his TPTK is the nuts, as well as get away when it is ABSOLUTELY obvious I'm beat.

Anyway - what is the best player stats - in your opinion. I'm certainly not saying mine are exceptional - I'm just giving a foundation for us to jump off with this discussion.

I wouldn't bother with preflop stats at all. On some rebuy tables or in tournaments with deep stacks like 2P1A, when there are 10/20 stacks of 9K, I sometimes find stats like 37/0 at the table. Connectors, suited aces, small pair are dealt, a raise before you and two calls or three limps - you come in to see the flop for a penny. Postflop. It seems to me that the turn is too big and the fold to the flop is too small. That is, you are fighting for more banks than you should. But this is purely my IMHO.about the optimal one, IMHO 22/19/10 is not bad in all stages

 

[jordanbillie]

In your opinion what do the best players stats look like?
I'm specifically talking about tournament players - and their VPIP/PFR/3BET.

I'm sitting here looking at 3 of my tables, all MTTs.

My stats in them at this time are
21/10/3
26/17/0
23/17/4

I'm sure we all have opinions, and the GTO'ers probably have some stats that have been solved - or some such assisted opinions.

Reviewing my stuff - it seems I'm always right around 20ish/15ish/ and my 3bet ranges on average 3-10.

I'm pretty sure my 3bet is low compared to other players who's primary strategy is aggression, however lately I've enjoyed allowing my aggressive opponents to pretend they have the nuts - when in actuality - I have solid reads on them and letting them give away chips to me has been extremely +EV.
It seems I have been able to capture better reads playing like this - I'm not saying I'm playing passive - I just don't see logic in inflating pots - with bluffs, or strong but not nutted hands. Also - checking behind with TTs - QQs has really allowed me to capture stacks on rivers when A/J thinks his TPTK is the nuts, as well as get away when it is ABSOLUTELY obvious I'm beat.

Anyway - what is the best player stats - in your opinion. I'm certainly not saying mine are exceptional - I'm just giving a foundation for us to jump off with this discussion.

I think with MTT play, so much is situational or dependent on the play of others, that picking an ideal stat line is extremely difficult.

Honestly (many will disagree with me) I think these types of stats/HUDs can distract from or hinder one's play.

I am an outlier, and I have developed a non-traditional approach to the game (MTTs). I can elaborate further, but I don't play enough deep stack poker anymore to even care about stat lines. I simply observe how the table is operating, what is exploitable, and I jump on the opportunity.

 

[theANMATOR]

I think with MTT play, so much is situational or dependent on the play of others, that picking an ideal stat line is extremely difficult.

Honestly (many will disagree with me) I think these types of stats/HUDs can distract from or hinder one's play.

I am an outlier, and I have developed a non-traditional approach to the game (MTTs). I can elaborate further, but I don't play enough deep stack poker anymore to even care about stat lines. I simply observe how the table is operating, what is exploitable, and I jump on the opportunity.

Great point Jordan, I agree with you 100%. A couple real basic examples; if we know - have confirmed a player folds too often in the blinds to our left - we are implored to open a wider range than we would if we had loser players in that same spot.
If we know we have a (confirmed) NIT on our right our calling range vs him will be tighter.

You also might be accurate regarding stats being distracting to some, the basic stuff like open/1st open raise, cbet - etc etc are pretty easy to follow while sitting on the table with the opponents, however I believe it is best utilized to point out - outliers who do stuff too much. i.e. 3bets too many hands, continues too often when 3bet, goes to showdown too often, etc etc.
These - slightly more difficult to memorize stats are very informative - and allows a player to release some hard-drive space (brain) to focus on other points of interest in the MTT.

For me personally - I got PT for myself last Xmas, mostly to keep track of my play in a stored database - that I can use to review. I have played for almost 2 years without a hud, as a winning player - so I never thought a HUD would be a crutch for me. It will never be that for me - but - I have found some very great trackable stats - that give me solid information (and confirmation) on my opponents - that allow me to be confident in my exploitative play style.

 

[Luvepoker]

You make a great point Luv - regarding the contrast in two notable players.
It seems you may have pointed out a flaw in all the HUDs available for us to use.
LUCK is not a track-able stat. LOL I'm specifically point to Gus here - well - I guess we could deduce luck from his stats 65/60/45 !!! lol

I don't know of many other players who were as lucky as Gus has been. His aggression certainly put his opponents on their back foot, however - I saw him get lucky more times than I saw him play well. Two examples come to mind - when he called a jam on the flop on a final table of an early HPT with Ten high, and then again when he was just going aggro vs the field of crushers in that league game - I can't remember the name. He literally got it all in bad - because he had nothing to lose - he was in last place - and needed to double up like 5 or more times just to be competitive with the chip leaders - welp - he did - got it in bad every hand - and lucked out to win every hand.

I think Gus is an extreme example though - and most players in this era - who play like Gus - are the players who are firing 6+ bullets in every tourney they play. They are the prize pool builders.

I agree That is what I hate about re buys and re entry event. Sick playing against those who can just throw so many bullets into the prize pool makes it hard on us poorer folks.

 

[jordanbillie]

Great point Jordan, I agree with you 100%. A couple real basic examples; if we know - have confirmed a player folds too often in the blinds to our left - we are implored to open a wider range than we would if we had loser players in that same spot.
If we know we have a (confirmed) NIT on our right our calling range vs him will be tighter.

You also might be accurate regarding stats being distracting to some, the basic stuff like open/1st open raise, cbet - etc etc are pretty easy to follow while sitting on the table with the opponents, however I believe it is best utilized to point out - outliers who do stuff too much. i.e. 3bets too many hands, continues too often when 3bet, goes to showdown too often, etc etc.
These - slightly more difficult to memorize stats are very informative - and allows a player to release some hard-drive space (brain) to focus on other points of interest in the MTT.

For me personally - I got PT for myself last Xmas, mostly to keep track of my play in a stored database - that I can use to review. I have played for almost 2 years without a hud, as a winning player - so I never thought a HUD would be a crutch for me. It will never be that for me - but - I have found some very great trackable stats - that give me solid information (and confirmation) on my opponents - that allow me to be confident in my exploitative play style.

Thank you for this well thought out reply.

The points you bring up about the advantages of using of HUD are valid, and I fully agree.

I'm sure I would find its usefulness if I tried it out.

I do enjoy data/statistical analysis, and using it to gain an edge.

 

[Zapahlohotrona]

For the sake of interest, I looked at my statistics for 700 thousand hands. I have 20/12/4. I have something to strive for. I also think that 22/19/10 would be optimal.

 

[theANMATOR]

Thank you for this well thought out reply.

The points you bring up about the advantages of using of HUD are valid, and I fully agree.

I'm sure I would find its usefulness if I tried it out.

I do enjoy data/statistical analysis, and using it to gain an edge.

When/if you play on other sites a HUD may be of use. BoL & SB don't allow a HUD without manipulating things - so no need to worry about it.

If you ever end up getting one - I strongly suggest editing the HUD to include donk bet flop, donk lead turn, went to showdown, and get rid of aggression factor since it is essentially a useless stat because it is easy to calculate with other stats that are main stays on any HUD vpip/3bet/cbet.

 

[theANMATOR]

For the sake of interest, I looked at my statistics for 700 thousand hands. I have 20/12/4. I have something to strive for. I also think that 22/19/10 would be optimal.

IMO - I think you have solid stats - and I'd most likely mark you as TAG/solid player after I'd accumulated enough hands on you. I also concur with your optimal numbers.

 

[jordanbillie]

When/if you play on other sites a HUD may be of use. BoL & SB don't allow a HUD without manipulating things - so no need to worry about it.

If you ever end up getting one - I strongly suggest editing the HUD to include donk bet flop, donk lead turn, went to showdown, and get rid of aggression factor since it is essentially a useless stat because it is easy to calculate with other stats that are main stays on any HUD vpip/3bet/cbet.

I was unaware Chico didn't allow HUDs.

Perhaps this is a reason why the MTTs are so soft?

 

[johnnylawford]

In your opinion what do the best players stats look like?
I'm specifically talking about tournament players - and their VPIP/PFR/3BET.

I'm sitting here looking at 3 of my tables, all MTTs.

My stats in them at this time are
21/10/3
26/17/0
23/17/4

I'm sure we all have opinions, and the GTO'ers probably have some stats that have been solved - or some such assisted opinions.

Reviewing my stuff - it seems I'm always right around 20ish/15ish/ and my 3bet ranges on average 3-10.

I'm pretty sure my 3bet is low compared to other players who's primary strategy is aggression, however lately I've enjoyed allowing my aggressive opponents to pretend they have the nuts - when in actuality - I have solid reads on them and letting them give away chips to me has been extremely +EV.
It seems I have been able to capture better reads playing like this - I'm not saying I'm playing passive - I just don't see logic in inflating pots - with bluffs, or strong but not nutted hands. Also - checking behind with TTs - QQs has really allowed me to capture stacks on rivers when A/J thinks his TPTK is the nuts, as well as get away when it is ABSOLUTELY obvious I'm beat.

Anyway - what is the best player stats - in your opinion. I'm certainly not saying mine are exceptional - I'm just giving a foundation for us to jump off with this discussion.

I agree with a lot of the other posters that it has more to do with how a player adapts to their environment as far as the value of these stats. One other factor to consider is the types of games that are included in these overall stats. For instance, if someone is focusing on 6-max, bounty, or turbo/hyper-turbo MTTs their VPIP and PFR should be higher. I primarily play bounty MTTs, so proper strategy in those games lead to a higher VPIP than standard MTTs.

overall I would say 23/17/4 is good for a standard player with the 26 VPIP being better for an experienced player that can navigate tougher spots.

 

[theANMATOR]

I agree with a lot of the other posters that it has more to do with how a player adapts to their environment as far as the value of these stats. One other factor to consider is the types of games that are included in these overall stats. For instance, if someone is focusing on 6-max, bounty, or turbo/hyper-turbo MTTs their VPIP and PFR should be higher. I primarily play bounty MTTs, so proper strategy in those games lead to a higher VPIP than standard MTTs.

overall I would say 23/17/4 is good for a standard player with the 26 VPIP being better for an experienced player that can navigate tougher spots.

Great point Johnny. Since I primarily play standard MTTs - I was mainly talking about those, however in other types of MTTs with different elements, bounties, faster structures, less players per table - the average/standard stats will definitely be different/higher.

I'm preparing to play a 6 max event today actually - I normally stray away from these because it allows players to play more reckless, however the last two I played in - I made final table in one and top 10 in the other - so I'm considering playing more - more often.