My bankroll leak: too spewy with the re-entries

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ph_il

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i was looking at my recent sharkscope results and noticed a pretty big bankroll leak: i re-enter way too much in mtts. in the last 100 mtts played, i had 78 re-entries. only focusing on my last 100 mtts as that's when i started playing online poker again. now, this is a bit of a double-edged sword, (i think that's the right analogy). on one hand, without re-entries, i wouldn't have made some of my deep runs, final tables, mtt wins, and wouldn't have profited as much as i did. on the other hand, did the profit make up for all of my re-entries? i guess, in a way, yes because i still profited, but how much did i give up in the process?

....wait, am i litterally saying to myself "i profited, but how much did i lose?" i guess so, but i'll roll with it.

in 100 mtts, i had an average buy-in of $1.35 and an itm finish of 30%. so, out of 78 re-entries, i cashed in ~24/78. with the remaining 58 re-entries, i paid (lost) a total of $72.90 which is a pretty significant amount. to put this into better perspective, my best mtt cash was ~$65. so i basically netted $8 in profit for that final table run. call me crazy, but an $8 profit in 58 buy-ins doesn't seem worth it.

now, is this bad? i guess it depends on your goals. like i said, i wouldn't have made some of my final table runs without re-entries. would my roi% have been the same had i not re-entered so much and saved $73 worth of re-entries, i don't know. it's hard to tell. but spewing away $73 in extra buy-ins is quite a lot, even if made an $8 profit in the end. i still profited overall, but i'm wondering if bankroll preservation is just as important. i could've easily gone on a bad run and lost a ton of money on top of the $73 in re-entries. and, in that case, i would rather not have spent those 58 extra buy-ins.

do i think re-entries are bad? not at all. i love re-entries. like i said, some of my best results are because of them and they do build up the prize pool. however, i think i'll need to make some changes in how often i do re-enter to preserve my bankroll and profits. i think my best plan is to:

1. limit my total re-entries. i think 1-2 re-entries max would be ideal. maybe a bit more for the really low buy-in games.

2. use re-entries more in lower buy-in games and less in games that are at the top of my buy-in range. so, more in the .25 - .66 mtts, less or none in the $2.20 mtts. this is to keep my average re-entry buy-in below my average mtt buy-in.

3. try to keep total re-entries at or below my itm % so i'll be breakeven or still have a slight profit if i keep average my re-entry buy-in low.

that's the plan. i can't predict what my results will be but i'm curious to see how my bankroll handles the changes i'll be implementing. a bankroll saved is a bankroll earned, right?
 
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BIGAUS

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First, good job analyzing your track record and seeing that you might be going a little too re-entry happy and it's hurting your bankroll. Sounds like a smart plan where you have a heightened awareness about how often you re-buy. Be smart with the times you decide to re-buy and hopefully that helps with your bankroll planning.
 
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David Gibson

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I haven't gotten to the point of keeping track of my roi%.
I just haven't sat down and done the math. But I would suspect I am below 25%. I know I need to get this figure in order to focus and find my leaks too.
I to like rebuys for the same reasons. I think I have won more on my rebuys than single entries.

I agree with plumping the pot.
 
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ph_il

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I haven't gotten to the point of keeping track of my roi%.
I just haven't sat down and done the math. But I would suspect I am below 25%. I know I need to get this figure in order to focus and find my leaks too.
I to like rebuys for the same reasons. I think I have won more on my rebuys than single entries.

I agree with plumping the pot.
i use sharkscope as it's free and easy. though the stats can be a bit skewed. for example, they don't track cc freerolls for some sites and for re-buys, they do an average buy-in for the game. so, even i just spent $2.20 on buy-ins and didn't cash, it might mark me as being down -$2.85 in buy-in because that was the average buy-in for the mtt. for the most part, it's not a big deal but if you're interested in knowing your actual itm and roi, you might get exact results.

on the plus side, it tracks a lot of other things that you might not think about like all your re-entries. so, all-in-all, it's good.

using a poker tracker is another option. i'm sure it tracks all your games and can give you a much better detailed look at your stats than sharkscope does. however, i don't like running huds and i'm not interessted in anything else it has to offer. if you're looking to improve your game, move up in stakes, and all that, then i think a tracker/hud is better than not having one.

finally, tracking your own games is an option. a simple google sheets spreadsheet tracking your buy-in, cash-out, and profit can be enough to track your itm and roi percentage. you could even track re-entries/re-buys by just tracking them as a new game and then putting a little symbol to indicate it was a 're-entry/re-buy'. of course, this only tracks the basic itm/roi percentage, but that could be enough for some players.

all 3 options are good, depending on what your goals are and what you want to know. i would suggest using one of them so you're not just guessing. personally, i like doing a combination of my own tracking and sharkscope tracking as i can put in the games that sharkscope misses as well as my true buy-ins for re-buy mtts to get an accurate itm and roi percentage and use sharkscope for all other stats.
 
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ph_il

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I haven't gotten to the point of keeping track of my roi%.
I just haven't sat down and done the math. But I would suspect I am below 25%. I know I need to get this figure in order to focus and find my leaks too.
i replied in another post, but just wanted to post a pic of the google spreadsheet i'll be using. as i mentioned in my previous reply, i like to manually track my mtt results as sharkscope doesn't always track everything accurately.

since i'm changing my approach to using re-entries, i've reset everything and am starting from the beginning. spreadsheet is a bit small, but i like to keep things as simple and as compact as possible while still tracking everything i want to. for the 'rank key', i just highlight the profit cell the appropriate color.

if you're interested, here is a copy link the spreadsheet. of course, change it up to your own personal liking.

why are images so small?
 

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Luvepoker

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i replied in another post, but just wanted to post a pic of the google spreadsheet i'll be using. as i mentioned in my previous reply, i like to manually track my mtt results as sharkscope doesn't always track everything accurately.

since i'm changing my approach to using re-entries, i've reset everything and am starting from the beginning. spreadsheet is a bit small, but i like to keep things as simple and as compact as possible while still tracking everything i want to. for the 'rank key', i just highlight the profit cell the appropriate color.

if you're interested, here is a copy link the spreadsheet. of course, change it up to your own personal liking.

why are images so small?


You like re entry's and that's OK. I personally dont but they have an advantage, If i am out early with a bad beat its nice to be able to play more bit I never go a 3rd bullet. I think thats were some players are hurting them self's. I see players who re enter 4, 5 or more times and once your doing that its hard to profit with out the final table runs. I know you are talking about limiting the rebuy and I think 1 is a really smart number.

Hey, a big thank you for the spreadsheet. I will be using it. Thanks again.
 
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Vinao182

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look in my opinion, I don't agree with re-entry, you start to release a mental side of you as a gambler, with the excuse that if it goes wrong you'll re-enter, that's a problem, you have to keep a strong psychological play more accurate, but as we are playing poker to make money in a way if you are profiting, it is not wrong
 
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ph_il

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You like re entry's and that's OK. I personally dont but they have an advantage, If i am out early with a bad beat its nice to be able to play more bit I never go a 3rd bullet. I think thats were some players are hurting them self's. I see players who re enter 4, 5 or more times and once your doing that its hard to profit with out the final table runs. I know you are talking about limiting the rebuy and I think 1 is a really smart number.

Hey, a big thank you for the spreadsheet. I will be using it. Thanks again.
yeah, 4 or 5 or more re-entries can be a bit excessive. i've done that a few times and it definitely hurt more than it helped.

you're welcome for the spreadsheet.
 
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fundiver199

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In theory reentry has no impact on ROI. In reality though to many reentries will tend to hurt ROI in two ways:

1) If we reenter multible times, the last of those will often be very late, when stacks are shallow, and our skill edge is reduced.

2) If we bust multible times in the same tournament, it will often put us on some degree of tilt, and we might not play our A-game, if we reenter yet again. We are after all only human.
 
nuttea

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i was looking at my recent sharkscope results and noticed a pretty big bankroll leak: i re-enter way too much in mtts. in the last 100 mtts played, i had 78 re-entries. only focusing on my last 100 mtts as that's when i started playing online poker again. now, this is a bit of a double-edged sword, (i think that's the right analogy). on one hand, without re-entries, i wouldn't have made some of my deep runs, final tables, mtt wins, and wouldn't have profited as much as i did. on the other hand, did the profit make up for all of my re-entries? i guess, in a way, yes because i still profited, but how much did i give up in the process?

....wait, am i litterally saying to myself "i profited, but how much did i lose?" i guess so, but i'll roll with it.

in 100 mtts, i had an average buy-in of $1.35 and an itm finish of 30%. so, out of 78 re-entries, i cashed in ~24/78. with the remaining 58 re-entries, i paid (lost) a total of $72.90 which is a pretty significant amount. to put this into better perspective, my best mtt cash was ~$65. so i basically netted $8 in profit for that final table run. call me crazy, but an $8 profit in 58 buy-ins doesn't seem worth it.

now, is this bad? i guess it depends on your goals. like i said, i wouldn't have made some of my final table runs without re-entries. would my roi% have been the same had i not re-entered so much and saved $73 worth of re-entries, i don't know. it's hard to tell. but spewing away $73 in extra buy-ins is quite a lot, even if made an $8 profit in the end. i still profited overall, but i'm wondering if bankroll preservation is just as important. i could've easily gone on a bad run and lost a ton of money on top of the $73 in re-entries. and, in that case, i would rather not have spent those 58 extra buy-ins.

do i think re-entries are bad? not at all. i love re-entries. like i said, some of my best results are because of them and they do build up the prize pool. however, i think i'll need to make some changes in how often i do re-enter to preserve my bankroll and profits. i think my best plan is to:

1. limit my total re-entries. i think 1-2 re-entries max would be ideal. maybe a bit more for the really low buy-in games.

2. use re-entries more in lower buy-in games and less in games that are at the top of my buy-in range. so, more in the .25 - .66 mtts, less or none in the $2.20 mtts. this is to keep my average re-entry buy-in below my average mtt buy-in.

3. try to keep total re-entries at or below my itm % so i'll be breakeven or still have a slight profit if i keep average my re-entry buy-in low.

that's the plan. i can't predict what my results will be but i'm curious to see how my bankroll handles the changes i'll be implementing. a bankroll saved is a bankroll earned, right?
I think unlimited re-entries are bad for recreational players, and bad for amateurs is bad for poker in the long run. Another important feature of reentries is that they are aimed at professionals who get an unfair advantage over amateurs. Pros have more bankrolls, or they play from backers, which allows them to enter the tournament several times, while an amateur could even qualify for it through a satellite.
 
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fundiver199

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Pros have more bankrolls, or they play from backers, which allows them to enter the tournament several times, while an amateur could even qualify for it through a satellite.

Maybe this is an issue in live poker but hardly online. OP said, his average buyin is 1,35$, and I dont think, anyone playing for that kind of money have backers ;)
 
Psyanide14

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i was looking at my recent sharkscope results and noticed a pretty big bankroll leak: i re-enter way too much in mtts. in the last 100 mtts played, i had 78 re-entries. only focusing on my last 100 mtts as that's when i started playing online poker again. now, this is a bit of a double-edged sword, (i think that's the right analogy). on one hand, without re-entries, i wouldn't have made some of my deep runs, final tables, mtt wins, and wouldn't have profited as much as i did. on the other hand, did the profit make up for all of my re-entries? i guess, in a way, yes because i still profited, but how much did i give up in the process?

....wait, am i litterally saying to myself "i profited, but how much did i lose?" i guess so, but i'll roll with it.

in 100 mtts, i had an average buy-in of $1.35 and an itm finish of 30%. so, out of 78 re-entries, i cashed in ~24/78. with the remaining 58 re-entries, i paid (lost) a total of $72.90 which is a pretty significant amount. to put this into better perspective, my best mtt cash was ~$65. so i basically netted $8 in profit for that final table run. call me crazy, but an $8 profit in 58 buy-ins doesn't seem worth it.

now, is this bad? i guess it depends on your goals. like i said, i wouldn't have made some of my final table runs without re-entries. would my roi% have been the same had i not re-entered so much and saved $73 worth of re-entries, i don't know. it's hard to tell. but spewing away $73 in extra buy-ins is quite a lot, even if made an $8 profit in the end. i still profited overall, but i'm wondering if bankroll preservation is just as important. i could've easily gone on a bad run and lost a ton of money on top of the $73 in re-entries. and, in that case, i would rather not have spent those 58 extra buy-ins.

do i think re-entries are bad? not at all. i love re-entries. like i said, some of my best results are because of them and they do build up the prize pool. however, i think i'll need to make some changes in how often i do re-enter to preserve my bankroll and profits. i think my best plan is to:

1. limit my total re-entries. i think 1-2 re-entries max would be ideal. maybe a bit more for the really low buy-in games.

2. use re-entries more in lower buy-in games and less in games that are at the top of my buy-in range. so, more in the .25 - .66 mtts, less or none in the $2.20 mtts. this is to keep my average re-entry buy-in below my average mtt buy-in.

3. try to keep total re-entries at or below my itm % so i'll be breakeven or still have a slight profit if i keep average my re-entry buy-in low.

that's the plan. i can't predict what my results will be but i'm curious to see how my bankroll handles the changes i'll be implementing. a bankroll saved is a bankroll earned, right?

Interesting for sure. I never do reentry tournaments myself. I have to question one thing though. In your explanation you mention one final table run for $65 win and you spent almost $73 in reentries. You said that gave you an $8 profit from just that. This should be an $8 loss unless this is the new math. Not sure if that matters in the end with your justifications but thought I’d point it out.
 
mariale_1990

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It is good that you do an analysis of your game and especially because you rebuy, usually I do not re-buy in tournaments because I do not like it, but I will not deny that I have done it and the few times I did it was more because I was losing in "incredible" ways and I guess I was getting angry and trying again. I hope that change works well for you and you get good results
 
kurtcobain

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i replied in another post, but just wanted to post a pic of the google spreadsheet i'll be using. as i mentioned in my previous reply, i like to manually track my mtt results as sharkscope doesn't always track everything accurately.

since i'm changing my approach to using re-entries, i've reset everything and am starting from the beginning. spreadsheet is a bit small, but i like to keep things as simple and as compact as possible while still tracking everything i want to. for the 'rank key', i just highlight the profit cell the appropriate color.

if you're interested, here is a copy link the spreadsheet. of course, change it up to your own personal liking.

why are images so small?



Hi ph_il , I'm interested in your spreadsheet, Can you share more? I can no longer access the link provided.

Best Regards.
 
TeUnit

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I think re-entries generally have more better players, so that could be one explanation for a lower ROI. I look at like this- if you knock out Phil Ivey hes just gonna re-enter and now its like you are playing against infinite Phil Iveys, but if you knock out a fish they are more likely to just quit the tourney.
 
theANMATOR

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1. limit my total re-entries. i think 1-2 re-entries max would be ideal. maybe a bit more for the really low buy-in games.

2. use re-entries more in lower buy-in games and less in games that are at the top of my buy-in range. so, more in the .25 - .66 mtts, less or none in the $2.20 mtts. this is to keep my average re-entry buy-in below my average mtt buy-in.

3. try to keep total re-entries at or below my itm % so i'll be breakeven or still have a slight profit if i keep average my re-entry buy-in low.

that's the plan. i can't predict what my results will be but i'm curious to see how my bankroll handles the changes i'll be implementing. a bankroll saved is a bankroll earned, right?

I rebuy approximately 2-3 times depending on the circumstances. Usually I will only do it once - but sometimes when I see the field is soft I will join back in again.
The problem with the 3rd rebuy is - you have to make a run - min-cashing is not going to cover all the buyin costs.
2 bullets (1 rebuy) - min-cashing is essentially breaking even.

As you mentioned - I will only fire 2 bullets in the larger events I play 6-10 dollar range. But I rarely do that - because the structures are set up where rebuying after a certain point is pretty fruitless - less than 20bb and the field is not as soft as other smaller events I regularly play.

If you want to see a player who LOVES to rebuy - check out this thread. :)
 
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