Ask Collin Moshman and Katie Dozier About Sit ‘n Goes!

[Collin Moshman]

Hi guys.

What's the approximate sit and go buy-in equivalent for each cash game stake level? (NL2, 4, 10, etc). Roughly, in terms of hourly earnings and assuming single tabling?

Is competition the same between cash and SnG at the equivalent hourly earnings levels?

Thanks

Good question Ventrolloquist!

I'd say that NL10 is roughly equivalent to playing $5 SNGs as you'd want roughly a $500 bankroll to play each of them. (And similarly, that would make NL2 the equivalent of grinding $1 SNGs etc.)

I believe that hourly rate for a good player and level of competition would be fairly similar between each of these, e.g. you'd find similar opposition and have at least a comparable winrate playing $5 SNG as NL10.

If anyone who plays both SNG and cash agrees or has a different opinion, please chime in!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Sickthis, yes ICMizer SNG coach is a great tool. I would definitely recommend using it for study

 

[ventrolloquist]

Good question Ventrolloquist!

I'd say that NL10 is roughly equivalent to playing $5 SNGs as you'd want roughly a $500 bankroll to play each of them. (And similarly, that would make NL2 the equivalent of grinding $1 SNGs etc.)

I believe that hourly rate for a good player and level of competition would be fairly similar between each of these, e.g. you'd find similar opposition and have at least a comparable winrate playing $5 SNG as NL10.

If anyone who plays both SNG and cash agrees or has a different opinion, please chime in!

Thanks, much appreciated

 

[sickthis]

Sickthis, yes ICMizer SNG coach is a great tool. I would definitely recommend using it for study

Thank you I use to play $3 sng pre Black Friday but I find them harder now.

 

[Warrior1961]

Questions about sit and go

Hi Colin, hi Katie.

Newbie questions:

1-How many sit and go are a good sample to know if I am a winner in a level? 500, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000?
I haven't learned how to calculate ROI yet so please I need help with this but in amount of sits.
The question has to do with knowing what bankroll I need (I have already consulted this in another post and thought that with 200 buy ins it was enough, but I notice that as I level up the variance is greater and my effectiveness is less).
I am talking about sit and go fullring of 9 or 10 people.

2- Are sit and go profitable or am I starting to dedicate myself to another specialty (I also play mtt freerolls and very low buy-in), whether it is sits shorthanded or spin and go?

I hope my beginner's doubts are clear since my English is not the best (sorry for that).

Thank you very much in advance.

Kind regards from Buenos Aires.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hello Warrior in Buenos Aires!

Let me answer your questions:

1. Here is a great tool for learning about this topic. Generally though, while it depends a lot on how accurate an answer you're looking for, 1000 games is a good start but it takes closer to 10,000 games to know with fairly high accuracy.

2. SNG is a good and profitable format at low-stakes, particularly $5 and lower. By $20+ they have a lot of regs. The softest format is large-field MTT. But SNG has a lot of advantages and are very good games if you're playing small buy-ins.

Good luck!

 

[Warrior1961]

Hello Warrior in Buenos Aires!

Let me answer your questions:

1. Here is a great tool for learning about this topic. Generally though, while it depends a lot on how accurate an answer you're looking for, 1000 games is a good start but it takes closer to 10,000 games to know with fairly high accuracy.

2. SNG is a good and profitable format at low-stakes, particularly $5 and lower. By $20+ they have a lot of regs. The softest format is large-field MTT. But SNG has a lot of advantages and are very good games if you're playing small buy-ins.

Good luck!

Hi Collin !!!

Thank you very much for your answers and advice. Immediately I will see that tool that you suggest to me.
As I advance in the amount of sits played I will keep asking you, I hope I don't bother you too much (newbies have that bad habit haha).

Thank you for being there.

Kind regards from Buenos Aires.

 

[VVi10]

Hello guys, i'm an amateur poker player for 2-3 years now, i study for a few hours a day and i'm still trying to raise my bankroll, but i find it very difficult because i often have to deal with badbeats. I play 0.50 and 1 dollar sitngos. Any advice?

 

[bigredwolf]

shoving UTG vs BB

Hi Katie/Colin,

hope you are both well at this difficult time.

I have a question for Katie as it is about shoving and I know this is your favorite subject

This situation happened to me in an MTT, but I think it's the same for large SNG too.

I was ss with about 8bb and the chip leader was sat at my left with about 130bb.
So I thought, no way I am shoving to steal his blinds, where can I shove that he is least likely to call me? Answer is UTG of course. So this was my strategy:
When UTG: Shove 72o+
in B/SB: Shove QQ+

Three rounds this worked for. Nobody wanted to call my UTG shove. The 4th round I got AQs UTG, shoved again, got called and doubled up.:beer:
This was on the bubble btw, I was about 100th of 107 with 91 paid when this started , finished 35th.

So I looked at some shove ranges for 11-9bb and noticed its about 50% for B, 15% for UTG. Wow, this seems way too much of a difference to me.

So what is my question then? I'd like to know if shoving from UTG could be an exploit as everyone thinks I have a 15%, where in reality I have trash.:hahaha:

 

[bigredwolf]

Hi Colin, hi Katie.

Newbie questions:

1-How many sit and go are a good sample to know if I am a winner in a level? 500, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000?
........

Hello Warrior in Buenos Aires!

........ Generally though, while it depends a lot on how accurate an answer you're looking for, 1000 games is a good start but it takes closer to 10,000 games to know with fairly high accuracy.

Good luck!

Mostly it depends on how much better than average you are, not on how many games you play.

Firstly it depends on what you consider to be good. For ease of example , lets say good is winning more than 50% of head's up games.

If you won 30 head's up games in row I would declare you a very good player, no problem. The chance of an average player winning 30 games in a row is around 1,073,741,824 to 1. (against similarly average opposition that is).

Yes that is not a typo, its about one thousand million to one. No variance is going to account for that. 30 games. Job done. You are the greatest player of all time. Or more likely a cheat. Even then ,you could still just be lucky I guess, but not very likely. So in order of what is most likely we have:
1. Cheat
2. Poker God
3. Lucky

If you play 10 000 games and win 5 001 of them, I have no idea if you are a good player or not. Luck (now known as "variance" because we want to sound like we actually know what we are talking about) could easily account for that small above average performance. Try another 10 000 to be sure....or maybe a MILLION. Still might not be sure though. You might be an unlucky good player or a lucky bad player, or just average.

So yes, it can depend on how many games you play, but it also depends on how much you are outperforming the average player by. It also depends on how big the variance is (how lucky you are) but nobody really knows what it is. Nobody knows, so we guess and we guess bigger than it is to be sure, so we need more games to be sure blah blah.... pokerstars must love variance.

TLDR: You can be declared a good player after 30 games (maybe less), or never. Depends on how much better than average you are.

I really hope that helps people understand how difficult it is to answer this question and the only thing you can be sure of by playing more games is that you will be paying more rake.

 

[LedZeffelin]

Thanks

Thanks for the great info. "Deliberate practice" is a game theory concept. SNGs are practice. You must play them. But you need to apply what you learn to win big MTTs.

 

[Warrior1961]

Mostly it depends on how much better than average you are, not on how many games you play.

Firstly it depends on what you consider to be good. For ease of example , lets say good is winning more than 50% of head's up games.

If you won 30 head's up games in row I would declare you a very good player, no problem. The chance of an average player winning 30 games in a row is around 1,073,741,824 to 1. (against similarly average opposition that is).

Yes that is not a typo, its about one thousand million to one. No variance is going to account for that. 30 games. Job done. You are the greatest player of all time. Or more likely a cheat. Even then ,you could still just be lucky I guess, but not very likely. So in order of what is most likely we have:
1. Cheat
2. Poker God
3. Lucky

If you play 10 000 games and win 5 001 of them, I have no idea if you are a good player or not. Luck (now known as "variance" because we want to sound like we actually know what we are talking about) could easily account for that small above average performance. Try another 10 000 to be sure....or maybe a MILLION. Still might not be sure though. You might be an unlucky good player or a lucky bad player, or just average.

So yes, it can depend on how many games you play, but it also depends on how much you are outperforming the average player by. It also depends on how big the variance is (how lucky you are) but nobody really knows what it is. Nobody knows, so we guess and we guess bigger than it is to be sure, so we need more games to be sure blah blah.... pokerstars must love variance.

TLDR: You can be declared a good player after 30 games (maybe less), or never. Depends on how much better than average you are.

I really hope that helps people understand how difficult it is to answer this question and the only thing you can be sure of by playing more games is that you will be paying more rake.

Hi friend.

Thank you very much for your answer. I must tell you that I will read it and I will read it again because I consider that there is a lot of information in it.

Thanks again for being there.

Kind regards from Buenos Aires.

 

[akmost]

Hi Katie and Collin ,


I think I have an interesting spot for you again . I was discussing this with a friend of mine and we were approaching the hand way differently.
It is a $0.50/180 SNG and we are last 30 players (ITM:27 , I was 30/30). I lost a huge flip some hands before our spot.

-My approach was that I should gamble because I don't have FE, I will connect with all the lower cards and my hand is suited connector which is beautiful!So I wasn't care to make it ITM because I always aim for the top 3 to those games.
-My friend was telling me that we should wait for the bubble to burst and I could make it easily ITM with some time bank and some folds.

PokerStars - 800/1600 Ante 150 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 17.3 BB
CO: 13.28 BB
Hero (BTN): 1.75 BB
SB: 11.47 BB
BB: 38.22 BB
UTG: 14.43 BB
UTG+1: 13.08 BB

7 players post ante of 0.09 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.16 BB) Hero has 4♣ 3♣

fold, fold, MP raises to 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB, Hero?

Unfortunately I don't have a decent sample of hands for my opponents to tell you if they are loose , tight etc.
What do you think?


Thank you!

 

[Katie Dozier]

Hi Katie and Collin ,


I think I have an interesting spot for you again . I was discussing this with a friend of mine and we were approaching the hand way differently.
It is a $0.50/180 SNG and we are last 30 players (ITM:27 , I was 30/30). I lost a huge flip some hands before our spot.

-My approach was that I should gamble because I don't have FE, I will connect with all the lower cards and my hand is suited connector which is beautiful!So I wasn't care to make it ITM because I always aim for the top 3 to those games.
-My friend was telling me that we should wait for the bubble to burst and I could make it easily ITM with some time bank and some folds.

PokerStars - 800/1600 Ante 150 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 17.3 BB
CO: 13.28 BB
Hero (BTN): 1.75 BB
SB: 11.47 BB
BB: 38.22 BB
UTG: 14.43 BB
UTG+1: 13.08 BB

7 players post ante of 0.09 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.16 BB) Hero has 4[emoji814] 3[emoji814]

fold, fold, MP raises to 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB, Hero?

Unfortunately I don't have a decent sample of hands for my opponents to tell you if they are loose , tight etc.
What do you think?


Thank you!

This is a great question Akmost, and a very important scenario that comes up so frequently in MTT SNGs!

The freeing aspect of being last in chips is that we are slated to bust next, so the ICM tax of going broke is far less than if we were a mid-stack. We’re super short in this scenario which means (as you correctly point out) we don’t really have fold equity if we were to wait until another hand. We’re getting amazing pot odds, and our hand is suited/connected and likely pretty live.

In short, I agree with your decision to call the all in! While I understand your friend’s desire to try to make it in to the money, that’s going to be a tall order with under 2 bbs post ante, 3 from the money. I believe that argument is better placed when we are a mid-stack and not so short-stacked as to be correct to take a negative edge.

Hope this helps, and that you got it in with the 43s and flopped a straight flush!

 

[Glaucopone]

Player level vs SNG bet

Hi successful couple,


I would like to know how you would rate the level of the players in relation to the value of the SNG.
Example:
Beginners: $ 0.10 to $ 1
Advanced Beginner: $ 2 to $ 3
Amateur: $ 4 to $ 6 ... etc ...

Could you put two tables? One is the reality that you find in the SNG that you play and another table is the suggestion for players to bet.

Thank you very much in advance

 

[Katie Dozier]

Hi successful couple,


I would like to know how you would rate the level of the players in relation to the value of the SNG.
Example:
Beginners: $ 0.10 to $ 1
Advanced Beginner: $ 2 to $ 3
Amateur: $ 4 to $ 6 ... etc ...

Could you put two tables? One is the reality that you find in the SNG that you play and another table is the suggestion for players to bet.

Thank you very much in advance

Hi Glaucopone, I hope I understand your question correctly, please let me know if I’m getting it wrong with my apologies

I like your idea of being able to divide up players in an sng based on skill level to dollar value within an sng. Practically speaking though, it will be tough to know every player’s ROI within a game.

For some poker sites, you can search users through websites like sharkscope in order to get an idea of the ROI and common buyin sizes of your opponents. Generally, I prefer to make player notes on my opponents based on what I see at the tables; for example if someone is a good reg that will become apparent rather quickly and I’ll give them a red note. On sites where HUDs are available, the winning players will generally be identified even faster.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[Alberto Martinez]

SNGs or anything.

Hi guys! Collin and I have some cool stuff planned with CardsChat that we’re excited to announce soon!

And to get things started, ask us anything about SNGs, or anything else if you’d like

My Proudest SNG Accomplishments:

• Over 100,000 online poker tournaments played, most of them SNGs
• Played 40 or more tables regularly at once
• Having so many great friends in the poker community!

My husband Collin’s SNG Accomplishments:

• Wrote the best-selling book Sit ‘N Go Strategy
• Staked and coached hundreds of players to beat SNGs
• Almost $60,000 in profit and a 28% ROI from 180man SNG alone

We’re mostly playing on US-friendly sites now, but here are our SNG profit graphs on Stars where we’ve played the most. Collin is on 50 different Sharkscope SNG leaderboards! But I’ve played more games than he has

​

​

OK ask us anything!

I love both of your accomplishments,contributions and your smiles are visible through your enthusiasm.I do not feel any bragging coming from either of you. How you are able to play many tables at once is beyong me;as a sniper in the Marines I could not afford to focus but on one thing, my target..because my target shot back. Welcome with genuine cheer. What does water taste like? GOD bless you.

 

[Katie Dozier]

I love both of your accomplishments,contributions and your smiles are visible through your enthusiasm.I do not feel any bragging coming from either of you. How you are able to play many tables at once is beyong me;as a sniper in the Marines I could not afford to focus but on one thing, my target..because my target shot back. Welcome with genuine cheer. What does water taste like? GOD bless you.

Thanks very much, that’s extremely kind of you

 

[maniac]

Hey,

hope that you four are fine in these corona times. Just discovered this webpage and your thread.

Greetings from Colonge

bennie

 

[jirasuonna]

When to increase the number of table or move up in stakes?

I play micro stakes single table SNGs and promotional/freeroll MTTs. I'm trying to build a bankroll and trying to balance it with some study.

I have a modest ROI that ranges from 20% to 40% in the SNGs. MTTs is much higher, but that is heavily skewed due to freerolls and heavily discounted buy ins.

The STTs have a rake of 10%. (eg. 1.00 + .10)

1) Due to general variance and rake, do you think there is a realistic cap on the ROI you can expect? I realize that the player pool skill level is huge factor here.

2) Is there an ROI level that you would try to achieve before increasing the number of tables, or moving up in stakes? Or is there another metric you would use?

Thanks!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hey Maniac, great to see you here, hope all is well in germany!

Jirasuonna, very good questions. Here are my answers:

1. Yes, there is definitely an ROI cap. Your 20%+ ROI is very impressive for SNGs! I think that today, there are very few one-table SNGs soft enough that higher than 20% ROI is long-term sustainable. Note also that variance doesn't impact your winrate, it only affects swings.

2. For number of tables, you'd want to believe you were a winning player and also very comfortable with your current table count. For increasing stakes, that you were a winning player who could win with a higher hourly if you move up. Generally the winning player component takes a minimum of 500 games to have some level of confidence. Even that sample is fairly small, but combined with seeing your opponents make significant mistakes, you could win with a high winrate at 500 games and be pretty confident you were winning.

Hope that helps!

 

[jirasuonna]

1. Yes, there is definitely an ROI cap. Your 20%+ ROI is very impressive for SNGs! I think that today, there are very few one-table SNGs soft enough that higher than 20% ROI is long-term sustainable. Note also that variance doesn't impact your winrate, it only affects swings.

I think that variance might have been the wrong word. Maybe "luck" is better. With a 9-max table the absolute cap is 409% (4.50/1.1), but even if you are overwhelmingly the best player in every game, luck is not going to let you win anywhere close to 100% of the time.

20% ROI doesn't feel very impressive when it is $0.50+$0.05 doing only 2 tables at time and translates to $0.11 per game. 3 tables and the win rate drops. 4 tables and I can't keep track and up timing out preflop. My guess is that I should practice more at 3 tables.

As a professional, what ROI do you feel comfortable with? I realize it is probably going to be lower than what I should feel comfortable with because you are probably far better bankrolled and have a much higher volume to iron out variance.

 

[Pokerbuz]

Book still valid

Hi, Collin and Katie,

I'm reading the book you wrote. The comprehensive number of hand's examples are taking my time to study every one in detail. I'll search my hand history and analyse my game based on. My questions are:

- Does your book be written for regular SnG's?
- @Heads up would be optimal to play push/shove strategy? I'd played against one player, and he put a lot of pressure and I stayed paralysed because his aggression (for your information both were deep stacks).
- Nit style that avoids post-flop game and arrives @bubble short stacks (quiet nobody calls their shoves) is the best way to play this game today? (I sharscoping them and they have an impressive steadily graphic)

All the best and be safe,



Arnaldo Santos
brazil

 

[DoIHaveAFlush]

Hi,

What would you consider as the biggest difference between sit n go, cash games and tournaments? What's is the difference in strategy for these games in your opinion?

 

[jirasuonna]

I think that variance might have been the wrong word. Maybe "luck" is better. With a 9-max table the absolute cap is 409% (4.50/1.1), but even if you are overwhelmingly the best player in every game, luck is not going to let you win anywhere close to 100% of the time.

20% ROI doesn't feel very impressive when it is $0.50+$0.05 doing only 2 tables at time and translates to $0.11 per game. 3 tables and the win rate drops. 4 tables and I can't keep track and up timing out preflop. My guess is that I should practice more at 3 tables.

As a professional, what ROI do you feel comfortable with? I realize it is probably going to be lower than what I should feel comfortable with because you are probably far better bankrolled and have a much higher volume to iron out variance.

Edit: I just realized that I miscalculated ROI for the absolute cap mentioned above. Should be "(4.50-1.1)/1.1" or 309%. I usually do [AverageProfit/(buyin+rake)] in my spreadsheet.

Haven't figured out how to edit posts yet.