All in at flop to stop a flush draw? - good or bad?

A

Axmanace

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I’ve been running into this scenario quite a bit and wanted to get some community feedback on the best way to play it.

The flop either hits me (trips / two pair) or it’s low and uncoordinated (no straight possible) and I have high pair (JJ+) BUT there is a flush draw on the table.

Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush. sometime if my stack size is not large enough this results in going all in (since I’d be pot commuted anyway).

Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

I’m also curious if they push you all in (and you know you have the best hand unless they hit the flush) if calling is always the right move.

Appreciate the thoughts.
 
B

Badday94

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Great post. What I've learned from experience is that someone with a flush draw after flop will most likely call to anything, especially in tournaments. I've lost so many times being super aggressive, raising a lot or going all in, them calling and getting the flush after turn. So what I do now is make a 3 or 4 bet after flop and if they don't make the flush on the turn, then I bet big. Most of the times they fold after turn this way. If they make the flush on the turn, then it is what it is, you can't win them all and at least you didn't lose much by not raising a lot, it's a loss you can afford. This is what I do, maybe someone has a better strategy at this.
 
Nafor

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Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush.
Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


These spots are tricky, and if the opponents are not skilled enough thinking about the math side is usually useless.

I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

If you are against more than one player in that hand, a reasonable raise to make others fold might be in order. But with trips against only one player I would probably take my chances if it came down to flip and there would be no more than three same suits on the table by river.
 
sharipov8090

sharipov8090

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it always depends on what you put on the line.If these are small things, then the passage further is not so dangerous in doubt as to play.If this is an expensive tournament, then the chances of the game become something serious for you.Maybe someone else's is different.so you can only play with a larger stack while having the right to make a mistake or not reach the flush.It always depends on the situation!
 
Q

Qrise

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I’ve been running into this scenario quite a bit and wanted to get some community feedback on the best way to play it.

The flop either hits me (trips / two pair) or it’s low and uncoordinated (no straight possible) and I have high pair (JJ+) BUT there is a flush draw on the table.

Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush. sometime if my stack size is not large enough this results in going all in (since I’d be pot commuted anyway).

Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

I’m also curious if they push you all in (and you know you have the best hand unless they hit the flush) if calling is always the right move.

Appreciate the thoughts.


I also encounter this often, I used to play just as aggressively, I went almost all-in preventing my opponent from closing a flush draw or a straight draw, but because of this strategy of the game there were a lot of losses, and I try to hone my skills so as not to lose. Therefore, now I have a different strategy, now in such a situation I only make a small bet, that's all. :cool:
 
Vallet

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Many players chase the flush draw regardless of the size of the bets. I don't like that either. But I always calculate my chances of winning. Poker math is important for counting outs.
Why do you think that JJ's hand or a pocket pair always has the best odds on the flop against a flush draw?
I will provide you with two screenshots of my game. The opponent puts an all-in on the flop, and I call because I have the best chance of winning. Note the second screenshot against the player with JJ.

PokerStars 2020 2

PokerStars 2020 1
 
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A

Axmanace

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Many players chase the flush draw regardless of the size of the bets. I don't like that either. But I always calculate my chances of winning. Poker math is important for counting outs.
Why do you think that JJ's hand or a pocket pair always has the best odds on the flop against a flush draw?
I will provide you with two screenshots of my game. The opponent puts an all-in on the flop, and I call because I have the best chance of winning. Note the second screenshot against the player with JJ.

View attachment 287232

View attachment 287233


I thought I mentioned this question only is applicable when a straight is not also possible? (No straight draw).

If you have both an open ended straight draw AND a flush draw on the flop you are almost always the favorite to win the hand. I’m not talking about that scenario.

In that scenario being aggressive is always wrong because a good player will always call.
 
F

fundiver199

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First of all you need to realise, that your opponents always have a range of hands, and you want to pick a line and bet size, which is best against their entire range and not just a specific part of it like flushdraws. If the stack to pot ratio (SPR) is only a little over one, it can be fine to simply ship it on a dynamic flop. But in most other situations betting full pot is to much.

You also need to realise, that on the flop good draws have so much equity, that people will often call even large bets, and not incorrectly so. So the time to really get value from draws is actually on brick turns. Here you can sometimes use overbetting, if the board is wet, and you only have like 1,3 times the pot left. If on the other hand the most obvious draws have come in on the turn, you can sometimes get away from even a set or two pair without losing your entire stack.
 
greatgame230

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The answer is yes, you must be aggressive in that situation when you play free or micros there is a great possibility that the opponent will call but those are the risks that must be taken in these tournaments, but being aggressive is the right thing to do, And if the opponent does shove, although it depends on the action in the Preflop, but the right thing to do is to call, he can have many outs but at the moment of making the decision you have the best hand
 
nuttea

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If, besides the flush draw, there are no more options for strengthening, then playing all-in is a mathematically correct decision. A missed flush on the flop has a 39% chance of closing on subsequent streets. Thus, in most cases, you will not get a monster at the showdown. However, very often there are situations where, in addition to the flush draw, you will have chances to improve at the expense of other potentially strong combinations.
 
Rosxana13

Rosxana13

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I think is good

In my opinion is a good move to c bet little higher than half pot around 60-65% of pot cause they will only hit their flush around 36% of the times with turn and river yet to show so if you have the nuts only beaten by the flush you'll be winning a lot in the long run so I would say it is profitable to go all in with the advantage that's how I see it ... Of course like in poker it all depends on the game situation cause if is tournament or a SNG you have to consider ICM and that's stuff that would make a good or bad call but in general for cash games I thinks it's a win in the long run so I would say as long you're playing with a good bankroll management you'll profit
 
Vallet

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I thought I mentioned this question only is applicable when a straight is not also possible? (No straight draw).

If you have both an open ended straight draw AND a flush draw on the flop you are almost always the favorite to win the hand. I’m not talking about that scenario.

In that scenario being aggressive is always wrong because a good player will always call.
I just wanted to say that the opponent may have a flush draw + additional outs that we may not notice. Tournament life cannot be risked if there is no re-entry. CardsChat Calculator will show you the odds of winning and help you make decisions if you haven't saved your hand history.
For example, there is no straight draw, but there are one or two high cards of the opponent.
2311
32112
 
0546474

0546474

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Very good and necessary post !!! In such situations, I always feel insecure !!! I will "spy" the discussion)))
 
abgvedr

abgvedr

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I also encounter this often, I used to play just as aggressively, I went almost all-in preventing my opponent from closing a flush draw or a straight draw, but because of this strategy of the game there were a lot of losses, and I try to hone my skills so as not to lose. Therefore, now I have a different strategy, now in such a situation I only make a small bet, that's all. :cool:
Am i missing somthing ... So you playing your made hand vs flush draw over agressively, your opponents tend to continue and proceed to win a lot, and soyou start changing your strategy? I mean ... I take a made hand vs flush draw al in situation any day of the week, its only a bad play from your oppontnts to continue you dont have to adjust anything, if you lose a lot like this, wel just wait and continue doing what you doing and in a long run you be wining alot.
 
abgvedr

abgvedr

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I’ve been running into this scenario quite a bit and wanted to get some community feedback on the best way to play it.

The flop either hits me (trips / two pair) or it’s low and uncoordinated (no straight possible) and I have high pair (JJ+) BUT there is a flush draw on the table.

Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush. sometime if my stack size is not large enough this results in going all in (since I’d be pot commuted anyway).

Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

I’m also curious if they push you all in (and you know you have the best hand unless they hit the flush) if calling is always the right move.

Appreciate the thoughts.


if you thinking about stoping any draws, then you doing poker wrong. if you get AA preflop, you not going al in right away are you? Just to stop any potential draws. So what you really need to bet is the biggest amount that people would continue playing their draws, well not less then 2/3 of the pot. Just let them go. If they continue for a pot size so be it. In a long run you be winning.
 
N

natelearnspoker

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I’ve been running into this scenario quite a bit and wanted to get some community feedback on the best way to play it.

The flop either hits me (trips / two pair) or it’s low and uncoordinated (no straight possible) and I have high pair (JJ+) BUT there is a flush draw on the table.

Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush. sometime if my stack size is not large enough this results in going all in (since I’d be pot commuted anyway).

Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

I’m also curious if they push you all in (and you know you have the best hand unless they hit the flush) if calling is always the right move.

Appreciate the thoughts.

If the flush draw if within the opponent's range, I usually three bet fairly large for value if I know I'm ahead. I wouldn't recommend jamming because you want some chips in reserve so you can fold if the flush completes on the turn or river. Also in terms of odds, the flush completes 30% of the time so I make sure I give the opponent bad odds by betting large, but not shipping it all in.
 
K

karl coakley

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As a few others posted trying to push someone off a flush draw is just bad poker.

Why would I want to push someone out of a pot where I'm a huge favorite?

You need to bet your hand, in the end you will win more and lose less.
 
A

Axmanace

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As a few others posted trying to push someone off a flush draw is just bad poker.

Why would I want to push someone out of a pot where I'm a huge favorite?

You need to bet your hand, in the end you will win more and lose less.


Wouldn’t you want to bet in a way that calling is unfavorable?

If you bet low enough the correct call is to chase the flush. You want people chasing the flush on both the turn and river - and getting correct pot odds to do so?

Maybe not full pot, but if there is a flush draw I’ll usually bet 2/3 pot to make it a mistake to call - but profitable for me if they do.

If a large portion of my stack is in the middle I’ll usually do pot size or all in to protect it.
 
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karl coakley

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Wouldn’t you want to bet in a way that calling is unfavorable?

If you bet low enough the correct call is to chase the flush. You want people chasing the flush on both the turn and river - and getting correct pot odds to do so?

Maybe not full pot, but if there is a flush draw I’ll usually bet 2/3 pot to make it a mistake to call - but profitable for me if they do.

If a large portion of my stack is in the middle I’ll usually do pot size or all in to protect it.


That is usually where I'm at, 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot. Maybe even a pot bet on the turn. They want to chase let them pay to do it. If the flush hits I can always get away from it if I choose to.
 
A

Axmanace

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That is usually where I'm at, 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot. Maybe even a pot bet on the turn. They want to chase let them pay to do it. If the flush hits I can always get away from it if I choose to.



That makes sense.

The only time I go all in to prevent a chaser is late game when the pot represents more than 20% of my remaining stack.

Or if making a 2/3 pot bet would pretty much put me all in anyways.

I guess typing out that makes sense because in those instances an “all in” push would represent 2/3 of the pot or maybe a little more... lol
 
theANMATOR

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it always depends on what you put on the line.If these are small things, then the passage further is not so dangerous in doubt as to play.If this is an expensive tournament, then the chances of the game become something serious for you.Maybe someone else's is different.so you can only play with a larger stack while having the right to make a mistake or not reach the flush.It always depends on the situation!

Disagree. Don't alter your play style just because you are playing a bigger buyin event. That is how scared players play.

I do agree that being a bit more cautious on the flop isn't a terrible decision. It really depends on the type of opponent you are up against.
 
S

silversun87

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I’ve been running into this scenario quite a bit and wanted to get some community feedback on the best way to play it.

The flop either hits me (trips / two pair) or it’s low and uncoordinated (no straight possible) and I have high pair (JJ+) BUT there is a flush draw on the table.

Normally when this occurs I c-bet the full pot to ensure my opponents are not getting pot odds to call down a flush. sometime if my stack size is not large enough this results in going all in (since I’d be pot commuted anyway).

Occasionally, especially at the micro stakes level, an opponent will still call me and hit their flush, making me go bust.


I’m wondering if protecting yourself in this spot (aggressively raising) is still the best play or if there is a different strategy I should be employing?

I’m also curious if they push you all in (and you know you have the best hand unless they hit the flush) if calling is always the right move.

Appreciate the thoughts.

I think you are making a mistake trying to push them out of the hand if you have an overpair. They get 36% change to make their hand therefore you would win 64% of the time in the long run. You should want every such hand to run out so you win more money. You are losing money by driving them out of the hand. You get the feeling they win more because your brain tends to remember the big losses instead of the big wins.

I recommend you make a small to moderate sized bet so you keep them in the hand but still extract money from them as it will be hard for them to fold the draw.
 
Luvepoker

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Personally I dont worry about the draw. If they hit is so be it. I will bet enough so they wont have the correct odds to hit there draw but frankly if they want to call me that fine by me and 2/3 of the time I just win a bigger pot. This being said you mention you are going to be short at times when it happens. There I can see your point in pushing all in. I would not want to call there all in as mush but rather have them call my all in.
 
makisaa

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I think it is not a bad idea to go all in this case. It is a risky move, but it is a risk too for the opponent.
 
Yakk

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Good or Bad= None

Why are you going to go there on the flop? You shouldn't unless in the context, in the situation you find yourself in, you have already assessed your chances of coming out successful, if you are with your short Stack or you are in a certain condition that is pressing Increase your stack or you value that the conditions are favorable for you then do it, but remember you cannot control the variance, also the probability that someone makes a flush draw is 3 to 1, think about it but do not get passionate so you do not win , is won by being objective and rational in each play.
Poker is not to be launched to be reckless, the plays are of analysis, assessment, approximation and probability and as I said, think about it and act for your benefit only.

Cheers!
 
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