WTF KK vs. AA?!

[insolitude]

Trying to work on my tournament play. I usually play pretty tight early on, only playing premium hands. Just busted out of 2 separate $5.50 PS SNG with KK within a few minutes of each other. I can't figure out if I misplayed either hand -- would love to get some feedback from some of you more regular players. Is this just bad luck? Still I am just shaking my head...

PokerStars Game #16230961879: Tournament #82179095, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/03/24 - 23:46:48 (ET)
Table '82179095 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: euankennedy (2050 in chips)
Seat 2: iTsTheGrind (1640 in chips)
Seat 3: carby (3100 in chips)
Seat 4: insolitude (1375 in chips)
Seat 6: ADuke6031 (1405 in chips)
Seat 7: bakinblack (2355 in chips)
Seat 9: tc6969 (1575 in chips)
euankennedy: posts small blind 15
iTsTheGrind: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to insolitude [Kc Kd]
carby: calls 30
insolitude: raises 90 to 120
ADuke6031: raises 240 to 360
bakinblack: folds
tc6969 has timed out
tc6969: folds
tc6969 is sitting out
euankennedy: folds
iTsTheGrind: folds
carby: folds
insolitude: raises 1015 to 1375 and is all-in
ADuke6031: calls 1015
*** FLOP *** [Qd Qc 4c]
insolitude said, "ouch"
*** TURN *** [Qd Qc 4c] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [Qd Qc 4c 5h] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
insolitude: shows [Kc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
ADuke6031: shows [As Ah] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
ADuke6031 collected 2825 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2825 | Rake 0
Board [Qd Qc 4c 5h 9h]
Seat 1: euankennedy (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: iTsTheGrind (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: carby folded before Flop
Seat 4: insolitude showed [Kc Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 6: ADuke6031 showed [As Ah] and won (2825) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 7: bakinblack folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: tc6969 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #16231133568: Tournament #82178998, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/03/24 - 23:56:10 (ET)
Table '82178998 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: prof.kelevra (2960 in chips)
Seat 3: insolitude (1455 in chips)
Seat 4: n8vplaya (1510 in chips)
Seat 5: KNOWNFACTOR (2155 in chips)
Seat 6: rbisprt (1030 in chips)
Seat 7: matey57 (1565 in chips)
Seat 8: ADuke6031 (1420 in chips)
Seat 9: prrb22 (1405 in chips)
matey57: posts small blind 25
ADuke6031: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to insolitude [Kh Ad]
prrb22: calls 50
prof.kelevra: folds
insolitude: raises 100 to 150
n8vplaya: raises 400 to 550
KNOWNFACTOR: folds
rbisprt: folds
matey57: calls 525
ADuke6031: folds
prrb22: folds
insolitude: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [7s 5s Kd]
matey57: checks
insolitude: bets 905 and is all-in
n8vplaya: raises 55 to 960 and is all-in
matey57: folds
*** TURN *** [7s 5s Kd] [Qs]
*** RIVER *** [7s 5s Kd Qs] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
insolitude: shows [Kh Ad] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
n8vplaya: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
n8vplaya collected 3560 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3560 | Rake 0
Board [7s 5s Kd Qs 5d]
Seat 2: prof.kelevra folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: insolitude showed [Kh Ad] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 4: n8vplaya showed [Ac Ah] and won (3560) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 5: KNOWNFACTOR folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: rbisprt (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: matey57 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: ADuke6031 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: prrb22 folded before Flop

 

[S93]

The first hand i cant see any thing wrong with u put your money in with the second best starting hand in hold´em and get beat by the best starting hand in hold´em. If u play pocket kings beeing scared of aces u never make money of them, just bad luck when u run in to them.

The second hand i whould whant to see a fold preflop, u put in a standard raise 3xbb and get a huge re-raise that is a third of your stack even with the odds your geting(3-1?), u got to credit him for a monster,sure he could have AQ-AK-AJ but its unlikly the best u could hope for is to be in a 50/50 race against QQ-JJ. And do u really whant to risk such a big chunk of your chips if the best u can hope for is a coin flip? Also AK is a good hand but again it´s early in the tourney your stil in good shap if u fold and the blinds are still low compared to stack sizes. If it where later in the tourney and blinds where huge u can call but with the stack sizes,blind level and massive preflop action i whould recament whaiting for a beter spot to double up.

But hey thats just me and i havent playt poker that long to give u a good analysist.

p.s. The fact that u dont post any reads and how the vilans where playing also makes this harder to analyse

 

[ChuckTs]

hand 1, standard, stack every time preflop

hand 2, I probably raise more pf (200-250), but as played I shove pf assuming villain is a relative unknown.

Seems like they're just coolers.

 

[tecnogoddess]

The common thing between both of these examples is that you raised and were then RE-raised.

It's really hard to ever back down at the beginning of a tourney when you get the cowboys. Especially considering how many maniacs you encounter in the first stages who will push and raise with any crap. So, without prior information about your opponents, it's a total lottery. In that case, I would say you didn’t do anything wrong.

But one thing I ALWAYS watch out for are the re-raises when I've already raised. If I'm not the one holding rockets, I'm going to slow down. I'll call if they only re-raised me, but didn't push all-in. I want to see a flop. That's going to give me most of the information I'll need. If I'm re-raised all in pre-flop, I'll call only if pot odds dictate, or because I know my opponent, or because I'm shorstacked and it's my only move.

In the first example, you and Annie were almost identical stacks. That re-raise from her indicated strength. But it's hard to know whether she's representing aces or queens or just straight up bluffing. At that point, I would have called instead of pushing. If I met aggression at the flop, I'd back down and save my chips for another battle. All in preflop is usually a bad idea, period. You can always try outplaying your opponent on the flop, but if you can’t, just let it go.

The second example you played better, I believe. However, instead of having a single caller to the re-raise, there were 2. That made 3 total players seeing the flop. A-K usually has a pretty rough time against too many opponents, especially against anyone who called with a pair.

The flop was worse news, though. You kit a king with the highest kicker. But you still had two opponents in the hand with you. One of which already RE-raised your preflop raise (n8tvplaya). That would be the one I’d be worried about. At that point, I’d make a simple probe bet of maybe a third of the pot and see how n8tvplaya reacted. If they just called, I’d slow down a bit for the turn and river because I’d put them on a higher pair or even a set. If they re-raised me, I’d probably just muck. However, if they re-raised only a little and gave me pot odds to call, I’d probably stick around. And I’d stick around if they continued giving me pot odds all the way down to the river. However, I wouldn’t try to steal the pot there because I’d already be suspicious that they may have something based on their re-raise pre-flop. If I can’t scare them out of the hand, then I don’t want to lose any more chips. Period.

In summary, you just can’t fall in love with hands. Aces can get cracked, kings can get cracked and A-k can certainly get cracked. You just have to know how to sense danger. The warning signs were there both times, I think.

Good luck and I know how it feels to get sweet hands wrecked! That’s probably the only reason I know how to back down if they’re beaten…..

 

[benevg]

... If I met aggression at the flop, I'd back down and save my chips for another battle. All in preflop is usually a bad idea, period. …..

i bet Matusow and his KK would agree with you there. can't think of too many other examples, though. and certainly not jamie gold. :joyman: (yes, i know those were cash games. but some principles still apply)

 

[viking999]

I'm not even going to comment on the first one...

I like a fold preflop on the second one. You're out of position against the reraiser. If you miss the flop (close to 70% of the time), then you're going to check, he's going to go all-in, and you're going to fold. It happens all the time. When we're out of position and this short stacked, I don't view AK as being in a race unless I'm contemplating an all-in. I look at it as about a 30% winner, because we realistically need to hit the flop to win. That alone makes it a fold in my mind. Add to that the possibility of being crushed by AA or KK (or depressingly neutralized by another AK), and I think it's a clear fold.

 

[insolitude]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Now that I've had time to think about it, I think committing a sizable portion of my chips PF early in a tourney with AK (suited or not) is a mistake. Certainly not unless I am short-stacked. If I can't afford to get away from that hand if I miss the flop, I don't think I should be playing it.

As far as KK, I just don't see how I can get away from that hand. I don't have a problem with folding even AA in a ring game, but in this situation I just can't see how it's justified. Let's say I just call and see the flop. Then what? Fold because villain may have QQQ/QQQQ (because a re-raise with with AQ/KQ/QQ isn't unreasonable)? Either way I'm all-in unless the flop comes Axx, no?

But let's say I do fold if villain bets strong after the flop. Do I really come out ahead over the long run? Isn't it likely that I am folding more when ahead than behind?

 

[Steveg1976]

Like chuck said you played both hands fine. You weren't getting away from either hand.

 

[OzExorcist]

Also agree with Chuck.

First hand is 100% standard - your initial raise was well sized, and your remaining stack was the perfect size for shoving over the top. Yes, AA plays this way and beats you, but so does QQ, AK and maybe some other hands too depending on the player.

Second hand I probably would've shoved pre-flop too, because the third player in the hand makes things messy. Once that flop hits though, shoving is again 100% standard and it's just a cooler that you were up against AA. You were ahead of Ax spade draws, weaker kings, QQ / JJ, etc.

If you start routinely folding these hands pre-flop when you're re-raised, especially in STTs, you'll be losing out on heaps of value. Sometimes they come out bad, but more often you're in line to stack someone and win some big pots. Don't be afraid of them.

 

[marble]

you should of folded both hands preflop....you were dominated.

 

[ABorges]

First hand is standard. If you're going to fold KK preflop (against only one player with no reads) you shouldn't even be playing... just the fact that he'd be doing the same with QQ, JJ and AK makes the shove profitable. Just a cooler, expect to see this kind of thing a lot of the time in the future.

Second hand you made one or two mistakes. Like it was said, raise to 200-250 with the limper. That wasn't the worst thing you did in the hand though, it was flat calling the re-raise. Again, with no reads you just can't fold AK preflop, since it's not very likely the other player has AA/KK as you hold one of each in your hand.

Flatting, however, is extremely bad with these stacks. You called 1/3 of your stack preflop, hoping for an A or K to hit the flop. Let's suppose that instead of AA, he had QQ. He sees the K hitting the flop and you shove in front of him. Chances are he'll fold and make you lose money. If you miss both cards, he'll be the one shoving and you either fold, with 1/3 of your stack committed, or make a bad call just hoping to pair. Not a good place to be in, huh? Shove preflop to make the most in the long run... and never EVER flat call 1/3 of your stack preflop.

One thing I see in this thread is people are reluctant to put the chips in preflop when they think it's a coinflip. To these people, I strongly advise you to read this article:

Card Player Magazine - To Flip or Not to Flip by Matt Matros

It's easy to understand and it will improve your tournament game a lot. Hope you get something out of it...

 

[pates]

Both were played FINE. You can't complain, you stack off every time on those hands.

You're unlucky to hit your K on the 2nd hand though otherwise you can get away from it. You're raise preflop with AK was fine.

 

[insolitude]

One thing I see in this thread is people are reluctant to put the chips in preflop when they think it's a coinflip. To these people, I strongly advise you to read this article:

Card Player Magazine - To Flip or Not to Flip by Matt Matros

It's easy to understand and it will improve your tournament game a lot. Hope you get something out of it...

I feel pretty conflicted after reading that article. It seems like a solid theory, I just wonder if it's how the best players handle early SNG.

Let's say you DON'T usually use Matros' strategy early in your SNG game, but you're a good player and your ITM is ~40%. If you start using Matros' strategy, by definition you will be knocked out early ~50% of the time. Is it reasonable to assume you will better your ITM with the remaining 50%? (I know the bigger question is ROI %, but it didn't seem to fit as well into this hypothetical question.)

Anyone who uses this strategy care to comment?

 

[ABorges]

That article is for use only in MTTs, you should stick to a tight early strategy on SnGs in my opinion (and many others).

 

[insolitude]

That article is for use only in MTTs, you should stick to a tight early strategy on SnGs in my opinion (and many others).

Gotcha, this thread opened with a SNG so I wasn't sure.