What do you think?

[titans4ever]

I alway like to analyze my game and someone after this one asked what was I thinking?

Final 5 of NL tournament. Big stack, 25k, is to my immediate right, other three about the same,10-12k, and me with 7k.

Blinds are 1k/2k
I am in BB with K8 and gets folded to big stack in SB and he just calls.

I put my last 5k in chips in and he calls with J3 (his comment, "just because I can").

He get a J on flop and turn so drawing dead after the turn.


After I walk from the table, get asked what was I thinking.

My take:
Normally in that position and chip stack difference a person would have put me all in and try to steal my BB if they had anything decent. Option two, he has a monster and is setting a trap (not to many who would think that crafty at this game). I thought I had his hand beat and put my money in when I thought it was good to try and double up. I fold here and lose all ability to scare someone off.

His take:
I could have called and thrown away after the flop when I did not get anything. I still had 5k in chips and could have seen another 5 to 7 hands before I would have been forced to play. I could hope to get a better hand and try to double/triple up with it.

What do you guys do in that situations?

 

[Jesus Lederer]

I would have done the same play. 5 handed the big stack was the SB and when everybody else folded he called...that´s obviously a sign of him having any crap. Your K was enough to make that all in decision, specially thinking on your stack size compared to the blinds. If he folded it would be good, and if he called you were ahead to double up. Cards didn´t help but in my opinion you made the right move. If you folded and waited until you get a good hand, you may be blinded out. You also have to think that the next hand you get a K high maybe another player would come with a raise making you have to fold your hand. The situation you were was ideal to play that K8 the way you did.

 

[xdmanx007]

OK you properly guessed the limper to have a weak hand and went for a steal. The only mistake you made was at that point if you raise him, his BEST play is to call you with any 2 playable cards. You must factor in your chip stack size in relation to the bet put in by the limping player, if his move is an auto-call you better have a playable hand and you really didn't. Short stack poker is checkers not chess. You have 2 moves allin or fold and you must expect a call which means no true stealing, wait for a playable hand and take your best shot is all you can do!

 

[-2222-]

X man is right about the probability of him calling you given the relative chip stacks and the size of the blinds. He knows that he is going heads up with you, position is not an issue and he has you covered easily so to improve his odds to around 60/40 he is better off with a junk hand like J5 because he will figure himself to have 2 live cards in most situations.

I did a variation of the same thing the other night against a very tight player in a live tourney. I had raised on the button as chip leader against two limpers. (The raise was a bluff and because I was big stack and we were on the bubble), I was hoping to take the pot right there. Player two calls my raise and then player 3 goes all-in. I then went all-in to get rid of Player 2 as I wanted to be heads up in a similar position that you describe above. Player 2 (a poker pro and somebody who is confident of outplaying me after the Flop) was not happy but he folded because he could have busted out on the bubble at the time. The all-in player flipped over AK and I showed my 65 of spades....there were gasps, let me tell you. People thought I was crazy but I figured the following:

1. I hope he has two broadway like AK or AQ.
2. This makes both my 6 and my 5 live and I even have a flush possinility.
3. Because of chipstacks and the size of the blinds, I am getting 4-1 on my money.
4. I am only a 6-4 underdog in the hand.

This is what I had to win.

1. The pot...substantial after my raise was called twice as well as player 3's all in.
2. I made player 2 weaker when he limped and then called my raise before ultimately folding.
3. If I could spike a 5 or a 6 then I could knock out player 2 on the bubble and guarantee myself a cash.

I did end up getting a 5 on the Turn with no improvement to Player 2 and then went on to win the tournie. That was a crucial hand, but as the big stack, one I could have recovered from.

In your position it is not a bad play going all in if you figured that he was probably going to call your your bet because any King over a random hand is going to be the pre-flop favourite around 80% of the time. That said you indicated that you still had a little time. In those circumstances, I prefer to be going all-in with a pocket pair if possible.

 

[Jesus Lederer]

The only mistake you made was at that point if you raise him, his BEST play is to call you with any 2 playable cards.

I totally agree with you, if i was the big stack i would have called with J3. And that´s the reason of why i think it´s the correct move to go all in. You know that he would call you with any hand because as XD said it was his best play, so you want to put all your chips preflop having the best hand in hope to double up throught a "must" call with a worst hand than yours.

That said you indicated that you still had a little time. In those circumstances, I prefer to be going all-in with a pocket pair if possible.

I don´t think GF had more time to wait. It was 5 handed and next hand he was going to be SB. So after next hand he would have 4000 left, 2xBB. With that 4000 he could wait 4 hands before being BB again, and that i think is very little time to wait for a good hand.
Just my opinion, i want to read more replies too see if i´m wrong or right.

 

[gordo30]

the old addage applie,s here don,t attack a big stack but the value of the king at heads up was always in your favour and in the end i would have made the same move.can,t see anything that can be learned from that type of play,some you win some you lose.

 

[XXIII]

Personally I do not know what the big stack was thinking. True it did work out to knock you out but J3 really is not a strong hand to bets 1/4 of my stack on. But I don't like Jack anything often. Unless its 2 face cards lol.

But he got lucky and hit. It happens. Do you like how you played? Poker is a game. Sometimes nothing hits sometimes everything hits. When ya go all in sometimes ya lose. Always learn when ya lose.

I say it was good. Heads up and short stacked there is no harm in making him earn those blinds

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

You have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a pair on the flop and if you don't and he puts you all in you may still be folding the best hand if you do fold. Pushing preflop eliminates this problem and is definitely the best move here, the other guy is just a donk who likes to think he knows what he's blabbering on about.

 

[titans4ever]

I agree that it is an all in or fold situation. I could have checked and then be forced to make a very hard decision if he bets out my last 5k, I could fold the better hand. Having all my chips in preflop allowed me to see all 5 cards.

I just wanted to put my money in when I knew it was good. It may have been only 60/40 but I was ahead after we showed cards and he is the one who got lucky. I hit a K and it would have been all but over.

I was not really upset that I lost because I knew I was not a huge favorite.

I was happy with the situation because I got the right read and just got outdrawn.

I have seen too many times when people give up or put in all their chips in when they know they are behind too drawing dead.

 

[xdmanx007]

OK Very good thread! Now what do you think you learned?

 

[titans4ever]

Learned:

1) There are a million ways to play any situation. You just have to be happy with the way YOU played it.

2) I would do it the same way next time, just hope for a better outcome.

3) Aggression, Aggression, Aggression. Do you want to be put in a difficult situation, or do you want your opponenet to. I choose aggression and lost. It happens.

4) I could have folded, two hands later got 55, gone all in and faced two overs, lost the coin flip and still be out 5th. Does it matter? I will never know what my next 5 or so hands would have been, I may not have gotten another face card and got blinded out, or watched a 3 way crazy all in the next hand and by default took 2nd. The world will never know.

I love hand analysis because it reminds me of all the different ways to play the same situation and gives me a glimpse into other peoples way of thinking. It is amazing how in one situation people can come up with completely different ideas and conclusions on how to play it.

 

[xdmanx007]

Well I was hoping you learned when short stacked to pick your spots a bit better

 

[titans4ever]

1)I would not have done the raise if it was anyone but the SB that had called.
2)I would not have raised there If there was a chance other than a heads up situation.
3)I would not have raised if I thought my K was not the best card between us.

If I thought that I was behind in the hand I would not have thrown out the rest of my money.

What type of spot would have been better?
I knew I had a better hand than my opponent and was guaranteed to be heads up. I don't think the cards mattered here at all. My odds would have been the same if I had A9 and got called by hand with a K Q J 10.

 

[Jesus Lederer]

Well I was hoping you learned when short stacked to pick your spots a bit better

I still believe it was a very good move, if not the best, to go all in in that situation.
You have to think that the the big stack probably held any cards because he just wanted to see the flop (and he could do it with his stack) and that he was going to call with those cards. Your K was good enough to be favourite preflop, so why not putting all your chips where you know you´re the favourite and you´re going to be called?
I think it´s an ideal situation to make that move. You aren´t trying to steal the pot because you know he won´t fold, you´re trying to win more chips as you know you´re favourite.
And in relation to the time you had left in that situation, i still think that you hadn´t too much time to make a move. It would be very difficult to find a situation like that where you know you´re favourite with a hand like that. If you wait and for example you get that same K8 UTG now your decision is very difficult. You fold and you´ll be BB next hand or you go all in and you can get more callers with better hands than yours. Of course if you wait you can get pocket pair or two face cards, but remember you just have less than 5 hands to wait for that good hand.
I agree that short stacked you have to pick your spots very well, but i think that short stacked you must not let go any chance to put all your chips being the favourite.